Received: from mail-yk0-f185.google.com ([209.85.160.185]:50005) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XVkxS-00005l-E7 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:30:00 -0700 Received: by mail-yk0-f185.google.com with SMTP id 79sf429709ykr.12 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:29:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=+74mGX8PwFt4jHc+iuDQS8Y2HUE9W4qgp02r6SpYPDs=; b=lbqOnkKVBg46kP4wNVBs391L4cyp5WW6eTuXmsXTcHrp821noRKvat9qzql+V/LV4W lHmVPPPkACMqDY2yv1r/XL2WwsJY4YUGfuNGr4e5STEcxgg0doxog9lLKObPILAd3xMg FZ5vFZIeVqT++5TNoHjFb4LEBovjdzRnVyWZZXFxd3zmhRl/kacT73Iwp74/UWJNr5/G Y/GuMIaXTNuXq1bcVJYvjBUKUS9zLdcLLkriy8jq2dXed/P3DngXODO4c+agAEyQQ7jT tTbQC4DiNzXlF9jGIPySDFRxT2rAAIm4sXTLw0sZ04jk+8Dn68f65aghDzceyZW241kM 61og== X-Received: by 10.50.153.77 with SMTP id ve13mr104690igb.16.1411320591797; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:29:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.73.200 with SMTP id n8ls1402139igv.14.gmail; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:29:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.42.101.204 with SMTP id f12mr22415769ico.22.1411320591438; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qg0-x230.google.com (mail-qg0-x230.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id t6si1416191qcd.0.2014.09.21.10.29.51 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230; Received: by mail-qg0-x230.google.com with SMTP id z107so1852483qgd.7 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:29:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.23.131 with SMTP id r3mr3320656qab.90.1411320591311; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.96.50.167 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 10:29:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20140921191556.53540ec3@aol.com> References: <20140920203136.7bb8ab2c@aol.com> <20140921191556.53540ec3@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:29:51 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The important distinction between "cmene" and "cmevla" From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c2c5c28269b7050396aeb4 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c2c5c28269b7050396aeb4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The term "cmevla" was specifically created to distinguish between classic "names" of the variety you believe the CLL "mis-identifies" as cmene, and words of other classes, such as gismu, lujvo, etc., that are being used as a name. This is why the claim "all cmevla are cmene" is true. cmevla are a subset of cmene. On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 11:15 AM, 'Wuzzy' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > All cmevla are cmene, > This is a bold claim. Proof it to me. > > Remember that "cmene" does *not* focus on morphology. It does not even > focus on the language. I didn't even go into "zoi" quotes in my essay. > A cmene is only a cmene if it is actually a name /given to something by > someone/. > On the other hand, "cmevla" *does* care about morphology. So these > concepts probably do not mix so nicely. It is actually not so easy to > claim that all cmevla are cmene. Unless you can proof it. > > And analogies don't proof anything. > > > but not all cmene are cmevla. > OK, I buy this one. This is obviously correct: > "lu donald dak li'u cmene gi'enai cmevla" > > ... iff we can assume that someone named something or someone "donald > dak". > > > cmevla are the specific type of cmene that end in a consonant and > > glottal stop. > > This is true for Lojban, but not for all languages. OK, we talk about > Lojban now, fine. But this sentence is still an oversimplification of > cmevla. Cmevla have other properties in Lojban, for example: they can > use the diphtongs "iy" and "uy" and they can all the vowel pairs with > a "y" in it, like "a'y". No other word class in Lojban can do that. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c2c5c28269b7050396aeb4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The term "cmevla" was specifically created = to distinguish between classic "names" of the variety you believe= the CLL "mis-identifies" as cmene, and words of other classes, s= uch as gismu, lujvo, etc., that are being used as a name.

This= is why the claim "all cmevla are cmene" is true. cmevla are a su= bset of cmene.

On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 11:15 AM, 'Wuzzy' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> All cmevla are cmene,
This is a bold claim. Proof it to me.

Remember that “cmene” does *not* focus on morphology. It does n= ot even
focus on the language. I didn’t even go into “zoi” quotes= in my essay.
A cmene is only a cmene if it is actually a name /given to something by
someone/.
On the other hand, “cmevla” *does* care about morphology. So th= ese
concepts probably do not mix so nicely. It is actually not so easy to
claim that all cmevla are cmene. Unless you can proof it.

And analogies don’t proof anything.

> but not all cmene are cmevla.
OK, I buy this one. This is obviously correct:
 “lu donald dak li'u cmene gi'enai cmevla”

… iff we can assume that someone named something or someone “d= onald
dak”.

> cmevla are the specific type of cmene that end in a consonant and
> glottal stop.

This is true for Lojban, but not for all languages. OK, we talk abou= t
Lojban now, fine. But this sentence is still an oversimplification of
cmevla. Cmevla have other properties in Lojban, for example: they can
use the diphtongs “iy” and “uy” and they can all th= e vowel pairs with
a “y” in it, like “a'y”. No other word class in= Lojban can do that.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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