Received: from mail-lb0-f186.google.com ([209.85.217.186]:46429) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XVldp-0000Vd-Ci for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:46 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f186.google.com with SMTP id 10sf292338lbg.13 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=AgJZo9kvyVJ4ez0qLvAw2GPWivfMGGTgqR5GE90B9UA=; b=XtItY35baKHztZSR59YXCqlMYkNhV/g6OEvHWK7DXFjgqrpjFtAHiUy0NF+WObrgcd zjnUr1WkUVa2aLATDhIv4QmTIngjsEnmMvgr9u/WmVhPw6CTpSSoh1Vdzq5ZloKRyujw vDG4dpPuTy2x14jzhVWz/rd5YkQnfiIy+66GrPQfsQeCLluMesgG3DgUEOgXgzCYmmP3 84ysCiq10u4IE85N8vjeWkpUzCfyx+XeUHKzHBilC3JYA1cVdZEiSAcaJ9eaDXDyEYrZ J5NHUqz3wWjb5Cx4zis+a0Y1+rlyCOeMGPxecJ3HlZrp6Dz2z3Kk5cqXTtSJXvX6XViF +1Mw== X-Received: by 10.152.28.66 with SMTP id z2mr19327lag.3.1411323217854; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.5.169 with SMTP id t9ls316933lat.74.gmail; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.18.199 with SMTP id y7mr6025lad.9.1411323216556; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x229.google.com (mail-lb0-x229.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c04::229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fa3si1151563lbc.0.2014.09.21.11.13.36 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::229 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::229; Received: by mail-lb0-f169.google.com with SMTP id b12so5606226lbj.14 for ; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.126.194 with SMTP id na2mr7669340lbb.70.1411323216426; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.160.104 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.160.104 with HTTP; Sun, 21 Sep 2014 11:13:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20140920203136.7bb8ab2c@aol.com> <20140921191556.53540ec3@aol.com> Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2014 19:13:36 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] The important distinction between "cmene" and "cmevla" From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c376c8fa7f9d0503974a5e X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c376c8fa7f9d0503974a5e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wuzzy is asserting "na ku ro cmevla da de cmene" -- correctly, I think. And. On 21 Sep 2014 18:29, "Jonathan Jones" wrote: > The term "cmevla" was specifically created to distinguish between classic > "names" of the variety you believe the CLL "mis-identifies" as cmene, and > words of other classes, such as gismu, lujvo, etc., that are being used a= s > a name. > > This is why the claim "all cmevla are cmene" is true. cmevla are a subset > of cmene. > > On Sun, Sep 21, 2014 at 11:15 AM, 'Wuzzy' via lojban < > lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> > All cmevla are cmene, >> This is a bold claim. Proof it to me. >> >> Remember that =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D does *not* focus on morphology. It= does not even >> focus on the language. I didn=E2=80=99t even go into =E2=80=9Czoi=E2=80= =9D quotes in my essay. >> A cmene is only a cmene if it is actually a name /given to something by >> someone/. >> On the other hand, =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D *does* care about morphology= . So these >> concepts probably do not mix so nicely. It is actually not so easy to >> claim that all cmevla are cmene. Unless you can proof it. >> >> And analogies don=E2=80=99t proof anything. >> >> > but not all cmene are cmevla. >> OK, I buy this one. This is obviously correct: >> =E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmene gi'enai cmevla=E2=80=9D >> >> =E2=80=A6 iff we can assume that someone named something or someone =E2= =80=9Cdonald >> dak=E2=80=9D. >> >> > cmevla are the specific type of cmene that end in a consonant and >> > glottal stop. >> >> This is true for Lojban, but not for all languages. OK, we talk about >> Lojban now, fine. But this sentence is still an oversimplification of >> cmevla. Cmevla have other properties in Lojban, for example: they can >> use the diphtongs =E2=80=9Ciy=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cuy=E2=80=9D and they= can all the vowel pairs with >> a =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D in it, like =E2=80=9Ca'y=E2=80=9D. No other word c= lass in Lojban can do that. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c376c8fa7f9d0503974a5e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Wuzzy is asserting "na ku ro cmevla da de cmene" -= - correctly, I think.

And.

On 21 Sep 2014 18:29, "Jonathan Jones"= <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:<= br type=3D"attribution">
The term "cmevla" was specifically created to distinguish betwe= en classic "names" of the variety you believe the CLL "mis-i= dentifies" as cmene, and words of other classes, such as gismu, lujvo,= etc., that are being used as a name.

This is why the claim &q= uot;all cmevla are cmene" is true. cmevla are a subset of cmene.

On Sun, Sep 2= 1, 2014 at 11:15 AM, 'Wuzzy' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups= .com> wrote:
> All cmevl= a are cmene,
This is a bold claim. Proof it to me.

Remember that =E2=80=9Ccmene=E2=80=9D does *not* focus on morphology. It do= es not even
focus on the language. I didn=E2=80=99t even go into =E2=80=9Czoi=E2=80=9D = quotes in my essay.
A cmene is only a cmene if it is actually a name /given to something by
someone/.
On the other hand, =E2=80=9Ccmevla=E2=80=9D *does* care about morphology. S= o these
concepts probably do not mix so nicely. It is actually not so easy to
claim that all cmevla are cmene. Unless you can proof it.

And analogies don=E2=80=99t proof anything.

> but not all cmene are cmevla.
OK, I buy this one. This is obviously correct:
=C2=A0=E2=80=9Clu donald dak li'u cmene gi'enai cmevla=E2=80=9D

=E2=80=A6 iff we can assume that someone named something or someone =E2=80= =9Cdonald
dak=E2=80=9D.

> cmevla are the specific type of cmene that end in a consonant and
> glottal stop.

This is true for Lojban, but not for all languages. OK, we talk abou= t
Lojban now, fine. But this sentence is still an oversimplification of
cmevla. Cmevla have other properties in Lojban, for example: they can
use the diphtongs =E2=80=9Ciy=E2=80=9D and =E2=80=9Cuy=E2=80=9D and they ca= n all the vowel pairs with
a =E2=80=9Cy=E2=80=9D in it, like =E2=80=9Ca'y=E2=80=9D. No other word = class in Lojban can do that.

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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