Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2014 04:50:57 -0700 (PDT)
From: TR NS <transfire@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
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 <bd0e5964-15f7-4684-b328-49d27887b5b6@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [lojban] Re: Logos Initiative
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On Monday, September 22, 2014 12:51:45 AM UTC-4, la xirsoi wrote:
>
> I think the clear issue here is that you are forking the language in part 
> because you are frustrated at a lack of progress. But the lack of progress 
> is due to a lack of people willing to do the work.
> Fragmentation will not suddenly create more people willing to do the work.
>

That's only about 25% true. I think is a bit of a red haring to hold up 
progress on the basis of getting the current state "fully documented" 
(whatever that means exactly). Isn't it a rather huge waste of effort to 
fully document something if the writing is on the wall that it's going to 
change? Perhaps if there were more man-power around it would be fine. But 
then, the "work" would be done already too. I should also point out, that 
progress partly entails ways to simplify things. When we do that, there's 
less work to be done.

I also don't think lojbab is really interested in much "progress". I think 
his heart is set on the language as is, which is why we have all this heavy 
stipulation of completion of documentation before any progress can be 
considered. The only changes that seem to be acceptable (with a few minor 
exceptions) are those of usage. But real usage changes take many speakers 
and many years to pan out. It is not my intention to speak for lojbab, of 
course, I am just saying what I gather out of the many things he has said.

Lastly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, I think there are more fundamental aspects of 
the language that need to be reconsidered. There is simply no room for that 
with Lojban.

And let me say again, this is not an either-or proposition. You can be a 
speaker and supporter of Lojban and participate in the development of Logla 
Prime. The later is mostly a matter of simple discussion at this point and 
for some time to come. It's not going to take much away from "work" on 
Lojban. 

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Monday, September 22, 2014 12:51:45 AM UTC-4, la xirsoi=
 wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.=
8ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div>I=
 think the clear issue here is that you are forking the language in part be=
cause you are frustrated at a lack of progress. But the lack of progress is=
 due to a lack of people willing to do the work.</div><div>Fragmentation wi=
ll not suddenly create more people willing to do the work.</div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>That's only about 25% true. I think is a bit of=
 a red haring to hold up progress on the basis of getting the current state=
 "fully documented" (whatever that means exactly). Isn't it a rather huge w=
aste of effort to fully document something if the writing is on the wall th=
at it's going to change? Perhaps if there were more man-power around it wou=
ld be fine. But then, the "work" would be done already too. I should also p=
oint out, that progress partly entails ways to simplify things. When we do =
that, there's less work to be done.</div><div><br></div><div>I also don't t=
hink lojbab is really interested in much "progress". I think his heart is s=
et on the language as is, which is why we have all this heavy stipulation o=
f completion of documentation before any progress can be considered. The on=
ly changes that seem to be acceptable (with a few minor exceptions) are tho=
se of usage. But real usage changes take many speakers and many years to pa=
n out. It is not my intention to speak for lojbab, of course, I am just say=
ing what I gather out of the many things he has said.</div><div><br></div><=
div>Lastly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, I think there are more fundamental aspect=
s of the language that need to be reconsidered. There is simply no room for=
 that with Lojban.</div><div><br></div><div>And let me say again, this is n=
ot an either-or proposition. You can be a speaker and supporter of Lojban a=
nd participate in the development of Logla Prime. The later is mostly a mat=
ter of simple discussion at this point and for some time to come. It's not =
going to take much away from "work" on Lojban.&nbsp;</div><div><br></div></=
div>

<p></p>

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