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Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 10:06:18 -0700
From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Logos Initiative
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Yup, the old Logjam trick of misusing technical terms (or, to be fair, usin=
g terms you don't know the meaning of in the first place). =20
"Logical language" does have a number of uses and Lojban fails in just abou=
t all of them (including "having a bsic grammar based on symbolic logic", t=
hough it comes closest to this one). As usual, what I mean is a language in=
 which every utterance is traceable to a unique representation in a suitabl=
e logic formalism, which representation correctly gives the meaning of the =
utterance, and is reached from the linguistic form by automatic formal rule=
s (parsing).  Lojban has several known shortcomings in this respect and no =
one has ever actually attempted to build the appropriate parser-transformer=
 so there may be (almost surely are) many more to deal with.  The point is =
that Lojban has done a lot of the work and the rest is probably doable, may=
be even without scrapping the baroque trappings that Lojban (following Logl=
an largely) thought necessary because of the clunky notions of parsers they=
 were working with.  Of course, starting from scratch, with more
 rational parsing devices and a clearer sense of what was going on (Logjam =
goals have changed several times, losing little from discarded goals and ju=
st slapping on what was needed for the new goal) we could probably eventual=
ly achieve a much trimmer langauge, one which, perhaps, even looked a bit l=
ike a logical language on the surface.  But not in my lifetime at my most o=
ptimistic.


On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 11:43 AM, Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org> w=
rote:
=20


On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 20:12:23 Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
> 2014-09-23 16:58 GMT+04:00 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
>=20
> lojban@googlegroups.com>:
> > Losing the thread here.  But
> > English is a tonal language?
>=20
> yes, say aloud this last phrase and hear the tone.

A tonal language is one in which changing the tone of a word turns it into =
a=20
different word. English has words in which changing which syllable is stres=
sed=20
turns them into different words (e.g. entrance), but no words in which chan=
ging=20
the tone turns them into different words.

Pierre
--=20
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci


--=20
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--=20
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:He=
lveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;fo=
nt-size:12pt"><div><span>Yup, the old Logjam trick of misusing technical te=
rms (or, to be fair, using terms you don't know the meaning of in the first=
 place). &nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-size: 1=
6px; font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucid=
a Grande', sans-serif; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;">=
<span>"Logical language" does have a number of uses and Lojban fails in jus=
t about all of them (including "having a bsic grammar based on symbolic log=
ic", though it comes closest to this one). As usual, what I mean is a langu=
age in which every utterance is traceable to a unique representation in a s=
uitable logic formalism, which representation correctly gives the meaning o=
f the utterance, and is reached from the linguistic form by automatic
 formal rules (parsing). &nbsp;Lojban has several known shortcomings in thi=
s respect and no one has ever actually attempted to build the appropriate p=
arser-transformer so there may be (almost surely are) many more to deal wit=
h. &nbsp;The point is that Lojban has done a lot of the work and the rest i=
s probably doable, maybe even without scrapping the baroque trappings that =
Lojban (following Loglan largely) thought necessary because of the clunky n=
otions of parsers they were working with. &nbsp;Of course, starting from sc=
ratch, with more rational parsing devices and a clearer sense of what was g=
oing on (Logjam goals have changed several times, losing little from discar=
ded goals and just slapping on what was needed for the new goal) we could p=
robably eventually achieve a much trimmer langauge, one which, perhaps, eve=
n looked a bit like a logical language on the surface. &nbsp;But not in my =
lifetime at my most optimistic.</span></div> <div
 class=3D"qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class=3D"yahoo_quoted" style=3D=
"display: block;"> <div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neu=
e', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div =
style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'L=
ucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir=3D"ltr"> <font size=
=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"> On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 11:43 AM, Pierre Abba=
t &lt;phma@bezitopo.org&gt; wrote:<br> </font> </div>  <br><br> <div class=
=3D"y_msg_container">On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 20:12:23 Gleki Arxokuna=
 wrote:<br clear=3D"none">&gt; 2014-09-23 16:58 GMT+04:00 'John E Clifford'=
 via lojban &lt;<br clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; <a shape=3D=
"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" href=3D"mailto:lojban@goo=
glegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;:<br clear=3D"none">&gt; &gt;=
 Losing the thread here.&nbsp; But<br clear=3D"none">&gt; &gt; English is a=
 tonal language?<br
 clear=3D"none">&gt; <br clear=3D"none">&gt; yes, say aloud this last phras=
e and hear the tone.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">A tonal language =
is one in which changing the tone of a word turns it into a <br clear=3D"no=
ne">different word. English has words in which changing which syllable is s=
tressed <br clear=3D"none">turns them into different words (e.g. entrance),=
 but no words in which changing <br clear=3D"none">the tone turns them into=
 different words.<br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">Pierre<br clear=3D"n=
one">-- <br clear=3D"none">li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du<br clear=
=3D"none">li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci<div class=3D"yqt3306709329" id=
=3D"yqtfd81417"><br clear=3D"none"><br clear=3D"none">-- <br clear=3D"none"=
>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups =
"lojban" group.<br clear=3D"none">To unsubscribe from this group and stop r=
eceiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+<a shape=3D"rect"
 ymailto=3D"mailto:unsubscribe@googlegroups.com." href=3D"mailto:unsubscrib=
e@googlegroups.com.">unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.</a><br clear=3D"none">To=
 post to this group, send email to <a shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojb=
an@googlegroups.com." href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com.">lojban@googl=
egroups.com.</a><br clear=3D"none">Visit this group at http://groups.google=
.com/group/lojban.<br clear=3D"none">For more options, visit https://groups=
.google.com/d/optout.<br clear=3D"none"></div><br><br></div>  </div> </div>=
  </div> </div></body></html>

<p></p>

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