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[216.39.62.62]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pk7si1755920pbc.2.2014.09.23.16.32.37 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 23 Sep 2014 16:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.62.62 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.62.62; Received: from [216.39.60.170] by nm1.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2014 23:32:36 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.239] by tm6.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2014 23:32:36 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1010.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Sep 2014 23:32:36 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 949759.55453.bm@omp1010.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 76006 invoked by uid 60001); 23 Sep 2014 23:32:35 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: OjiSEJEVM1n6iskKt5P1jy5bd1biYdo7NhbditOO8AZRlQz oVK2uiViRjEzxyJFHG3OvQBBWVQ343wmK.2MTKlEZYmybrDnQUqTi4zJrl6P 50GAO9b_3ujJMMqXQxaUl6l5arZu9dgxspDFMTdB35vDS1OXBde3GOXJG2Fl cpfa.iSxCJ06iv7GUbvJQDrPSKoRJ9hG6tOtT3fE4dLvKIrtuF1ZfZNhn.9h h3yjnK_M9dLFOAnn5pA3ETwTfIvI.7_cKaFWXBlmM9QOG1uHCTvW4bD0A8yB Pk5P8B.QZBF3GcJi4av6gdb0T2O6KoBmzIbdNhKq1TV9p5NTBYaVJN0_8gO6 U8mG2lJ4oY1QxsoxqoFcuR8QmYLSDL_OshOogJ9k6.hvvsClYmZ_fkbDq_fc XpPccHApYkuzAp7K.RjbmK7VTA.FMmrbbKNUPY8NyiMb5PXmNfu8YKJXLV3D lGddqszMTx7BgMcn.yzhw8XnpW5_JbUSxRShE488WEYpaoNWI9ZzcILXn6Kq JMDFHnRoouMxfpMBa7PcVOcnGciq5Vpmxh3UlCbf8CDWEo4O2LN_XOOrItBy 1G12j4WXo9H3.hutgjy_ey9bg_5hderSsvOpaUj81tGSwjJ9GHyaYWLYYrbt 0_te8xUUxiEgAC_5yNwJQoHUPUNFcHJl_jdHa3C19fYZEPhjm.GRCVHiWuf2 zySMTcqxP3p0qMXwBdcdSa8wVb8RciSVkouOyrdBbLNU- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 23 Sep 2014 16:32:35 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,SSByZW1lbWJlciB0aGUgV3ljbGlmZmVycyBhdCBTSUwgKGluIHRoZSByZWNydWl0bWVudCBtb3ZpZXM7IEkgbmV2ZXIgd2VudCkgd2l0aCBwZW5ueSB3aGlzdGxlcyBpbGx1c3RyYXRpbmcgdGhlIGNvbnRvdXJzIG9mIHZhcmlvdXMgdHlwZXMgb2YgdXR0ZXJhbmNlcyBpbiBFbmdsaXNoIGFuZCBvdGhlciBsYW5ndWFnZXMgLS0gbW9yZSB0aGFuIGp1c3QgdGhlIGZhbGxpbmcgZmluYWwgb2Ygc3RhdGVtZW50cyBvciB0aGUgcmlzaW5nIG9mIHF1ZXN0aW9ucyBhbmQgdGhlIHJpc2UgdGhhdCB3ZW50IHdpdGggdGgBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <54186B05.1000802@lojban.org> <54216771.9060804@gmail.com> <54217DB7.3040604@gmail.com> <5421EAFF.6070508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1411515155.67832.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 23 Sep 2014 16:32:35 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Logos Initiative To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <5421EAFF.6070508@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.62.62 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-1732168930-1411515155=:67832" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ---910415156-1732168930-1411515155=:67832 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I remember the Wycliffers at SIL (in the recruitment movies; I never went) = with penny whistles illustrating the contours of various types of utterance= s in English and other languages -- more than just the falling final of sta= tements or the rising of questions and the rise that went with the stress i= n contrasts. There point was (as I recall) that we don't notice it much in= English and thus it is hard to spot in other languages but it is an import= ant factor in natural vs foreign accents, for example. I suspect that most= fluent Lojban speakers simply use the contours of their L1s in Lojban as w= ell. In fact, they say, most speech is singing (on a very narrow range and= a long line) with only the lyrics changing a lot from sentence to sentence= . This certainly seems to be true of Toaq Dzu and guaspi based on the shor= t sketches from Google. They seem merely more aware -- and thus more contro= lled -- than most natural languages. Some credit to Ranger Rick for the point, even if the terminology was wrong (and the relevance, of course= ). On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:49 PM, And Rosta wro= te: =20 Gleki Arxokuna, On 23/09/2014 17:18: > 2014-09-23 18:03 GMT+04:00 And Rosta >: > Gleki Arxokuna, On 23/09/2014 13:44: > 2014-09-23 16:28 GMT+04:00 And Rosta >>: > Gleki Arxokuna, On 16/09/2014 17:57: > Second, the "clearly defined connection" between the diction= aries would work only if for each word in the one language there is a word = in the other language that always translates it, and this one-to-one transl= ation is explicitly stated. > > The only way this is going to happen is if the two languages= are deliberately designed to be intertranslatable. > > Since this project is/would be based on Loglan and Lojban then it= is implied. > > I don't think it is implied. > > The Logos Initiative clearly states the sources. What document are you looking at? I can't find anything relevant, and what = I have seen in passing does not imply that being "based on" or "sourced fro= m" Lojban will entail intertranslatability with Lojban. Indeed, anything in= tertranslatable with Lojban would immediately suffer the very failings of L= ojban, when the project is intended to remedy Lojban's failings. That is, y= ou want a logical language to yield a logical formula, not to yield a trans= lation into Lojban, which does not yield a logical formula. > english is a tonal language. > > It isn't a tone language. Whether tone plays any role at all in Engli= sh (i.e. intonation) is debatable; it's generally held that it does, and I = think that it probably indeed does, but the evidence is not overwhelming. > > Indeed. Indeed? Indeed. Do the rules that specify licit English sentences include specifica= tion of tone? My answer is "Probably yes, but that isn't as obvious as most= people assume it is", tho I say that on the basis only of a cursory study = of English intonation. > i wonder if there are non tonal languages except lojban. > > There are thousands that are as tonal as Lojban is. > > Most known examples? The large majority of other invented languages besides Lojban are not tone = languages, and of those, only a tiny minority have any specification for in= tonation. I suppose you might argue that Lojban's putative audiovisual isom= orphism means it cannot have intonatioal rules, whereas for most invented l= anguages intonation rules are merely unspecified rather than forbidden. If = you were to argue that then I will concede your point. (My own loglang has = tone but -- by design -- not intonation.) --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-1732168930-1411515155=:67832 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I remember the Wycliffers at SIL (in the recruitme= nt movies; I never went) with penny whistles illustrating the contours of v= arious types of utterances in English and other languages -- more than just= the falling final of statements or the rising of questions and the rise th= at went with the stress in contrasts.  There point was (as I recall) t= hat we don't notice it much in English and thus it is hard to spot in other= languages but it is an important factor in natural vs foreign accents, for= example.  I suspect that most fluent Lojban speakers simply use the c= ontours of their L1s in Lojban as well.  In fact, they say, most speec= h is singing (on a very narrow range and a long line) with only the lyrics = changing a lot from sentence to sentence.  This certainly seems to be true of Toaq Dzu and guaspi based on the short sketches from Google.= They seem merely more aware -- and thus more controlled -- than most natur= al languages.  Some credit to Ranger Rick for the point, even if the t= erminology was wrong (and the relevance, of course).



On Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:49 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:


Gleki Arxokuna, On 23/09/2014 17:18:
> 2014-09-23 18:03 GMT+04:00 And Rosta <and.rosta@= gmail.com <mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com>>:=
>    Gleki Arxokuna, On 23/09/2014 13:44:<= br clear=3D"none">>        2014-09-23 16:28 GMT+04:= 00 And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com> <mailto:and.r= osta@gmail.com <mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com>>>:
>              Gleki Arxo= kuna, On 16/09/2014 17:57:
>       = ;       Second, the "clearly defined connection" between the= dictionaries would work only if for each word in the one language there is= a word in the other language that always translates it, and this one-to-on= e translation is explicitly stated.
>
>              The only way this is= going to happen is if the two languages are deliberately designed to be in= tertranslatable.
>
>   =     Since this project is/would be based on Loglan and Lojban t= hen it is implied.
>
>  &nbs= p; I don't think it is implied.
>
> The Logos Ini= tiative clearly states the sources.

Wh= at document are you looking at? I can't find anything relevant, and what I = have seen in passing does not imply that being "based on" or "sourced from"= Lojban will entail intertranslatability with Lojban. Indeed, anything inte= rtranslatable with Lojban would immediately suffer the very failings of Loj= ban, when the project is intended to remedy Lojban's failings. That is, you= want a logical language to yield a logical formula, not to yield a transla= tion into Lojban, which does not yield a logical formula.

>        english is a tonal lan= guage.
>
>    It isn't= a tone language. Whether tone plays any role at all in English (i.e. inton= ation) is debatable; it's generally held that it does, and I think that it = probably indeed does, but the evidence is not overwhelming.
><= br clear=3D"none">> Indeed. Indeed?

Indeed. Do the rules that specify licit English sentences include specific= ation of tone? My answer is "Probably yes, but that isn't as obvious as mos= t people assume it is", tho I say that on the basis only of a cursory study= of English intonation.

>  &nb= sp;     i wonder if there are non tonal languages except lojban.=
>
>    There are thou= sands that are as tonal as Lojban is.
>
> Most known examples?

The larg= e majority of other invented languages besides Lojban are not tone language= s, and of those, only a tiny minority have any specification for intonation= . I suppose you might argue that Lojban's putative audiovisual isomorphism = means it cannot have intonatioal rules, whereas for most invented languages intonation rul= es are merely unspecified rather than forbidden. If you were to argue that = then I will concede your point. (My own loglang has tone but -- by design -= - not intonation.)


--And.

--=
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To unsubscribe from th= is group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to = lojban@googlegroups.com.
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--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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