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[216.39.63.120]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ss9si2035579pab.1.2014.09.24.07.53.47 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Sep 2014 07:53:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.120 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.120; Received: from [216.39.60.169] by nm2.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 14:53:47 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.236] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 14:53:47 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1007.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 14:53:47 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 696273.90849.bm@omp1007.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 42740 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Sep 2014 14:53:47 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 6Et80kQVM1mNpaTPrr0Nz9itTvR6kw4OjimffX_EPD7I0e_ Hljngy3ElDnbae.tygPexmO79RSUmFVvdY9RjqW2Pecp1doskdxn1t8KMahh v4CyUnLaucuziAMhZTyfk.KQ9thARia6QMHh4RgLNPL1WqjoTixlH7bzVNkN Jz3gLbRLJl_yTSWtQLidMy5L95_2DanNeVolGQZMVVuUUO6wOsWdGOlMMjCv WvA5lyXuXzPgRbRI8jby9EXM4TRHLsFN4IdqAWznAiyP_DKFzUFxK8hZwsVX Nybxf9JkKpOcwqN3TH.Hcm4JmPoPYtUj_fPQytHUycJHlB2ERSzR7kc0sPmz 2EnM.3uQF9jy1vdjWFWdOohwxOt9T.4Q6qMVfYFR4u7g2wrjP4h.c2BAOR1Q VPU9MyMusztr4dWAx7p2K8K1SAmY1L8WCrs4Mk68NtHAwMy6JxOOmrv3mSv7 sjzKWVuf348va4uwpRWweKyM7IWdrQ5Lb98C0eep_uwvAvhnaen_DXktZR.d v_FYmnfaxzA.EQKtDdMEo0iouWMV_7qBNG.r7PoYit9.Xo7A6p3iODudftwH mIg4C.2v99MKn.DJZ0t3O0dM25Nq3D1WXy5AuSY8xqjpFLF7D1eHEZ.XdA.y F8cEPhrUPQ7OwzypQArPk5nvWETNR4qXiSksPC4wMsv2u9vCeJABZTwlvt1N fYxyP4YX.2CUgk83N1sW0zA279gmCYIvm4aaAYNAmcTo- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 07:53:46 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,TG9naWMgdG8gTG9qYmFuLiAgUG9vcmx5IHB1dC4gIFllcywgd2UgY2FuIGFsd2F5cyBhY3R1YWxseSBzcGVhayBhIGZvcm11bGEgaW4gTG9qYmFuLiAgVGhlIHRyaWNrIGlzIGdldCBhIHNjaGVtZSB3aGVyZWJ5IGFueSBMb2piYW4gc2VudGVuY2UgY2FuIGJlIHNob3duIHRvIGJlIGRlcml2ZWQgZnJvbSBhIGZvcm11bGEgd2l0aG91dCBsb3NzIG9mIG1lYW5pbmcuICBJZiBMb2piYW4gcmVhbGx5IGRvZXMgY29udGFpbiBub24tbG9naWNhbCBlbGVtZW50cyAoSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIHdoYXQgdGhhdCBtZWFucywBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5f6a7dec-3c5d-477d-bd73-5bd69726b713@googlegroups.com> <1411515475.42591.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1465cea2-41be-48ac-8f02-934d4a4b904b@googlegroups.com> <88e103a9-04e1-4739-97c2-f37fa457e4a8@googlegroups.com> <90cb23e1-0ed7-4b3c-9626-c31c4c8a8076@googlegroups.com> <1411567412.85594.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1411570426.39518.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 07:53:46 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.120 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-839773511-1411570426=:39518" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ---910415156-839773511-1411570426=:39518 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Logic to Lojban. Poorly put. Yes, we can always actually speak a formula = in Lojban. The trick is get a scheme whereby any Lojban sentence can be sh= own to be derived from a formula without loss of meaning. If Lojban really= does contain non-logical elements (I'm not sure what that means, but ...) = then the claim falls apart. If the shortcuts are not rule governed, then t= he claim falls apart. So the hope is that both of those suggestions are fa= lse and that the two projects proposed here are in fact two sides of the sa= me coin. Since the formula to language move is just (theoretically) standa= rd linguistics, it ought to be relatively easy and then the trip back be pr= etty straightforward (by forcing if nothing else). The suspicion that unde= rlies most recommendations to change Lojban or replace it is that, in the f= airly blind attempt to achieve monoparsing without a suitable grammar, many= complications were inserted that actually interfere with the desired result, rather than just being unduly (it seems from the outside) = complex ways of getting there. On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 9:25 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: =20 On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: The most clearly missing item in this area is the big one, a program for co= nverting any Lojban sentence to a formula of an appropriate logic formulary= . Or, conversely (or perhaps reciprocally) a set of transformations for co= nverting formulae of logic into grammatical sentences of Lojban.=20 The second part, converting logical formuae into gramatical sentences of Lo= jban is actually rather trivial. The Lojban to logic is non-trivial because= Lojban allows many shortcuts and non-logical elements that are not always = well defined, but you are never required to use those when going in the log= ic to Lojban direction.. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-839773511-1411570426=:39518 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Logic to Lojban.  Poorly put.  Yes, we c= an always actually speak a formula in Lojban.  The trick is get a sche= me whereby any Lojban sentence can be shown to be derived from a formula wi= thout loss of meaning.  If Lojban really does contain non-logical elem= ents (I'm not sure what that means, but ...) then the claim falls apart. &n= bsp;If the shortcuts are not rule governed, then the claim falls apart. &nb= sp;So the hope is that both of those suggestions are false and that the two= projects proposed here are in fact two sides of the same coin.  Since= the formula to language move is just (theoretically) standard linguistics,= it ought to be relatively easy and then the trip back be pretty straightfo= rward (by forcing if nothing else).  The suspicion that underlies most recommendations to change Lojban or replace it is that, in the fairly= blind attempt to achieve monoparsing without a suitable grammar, many comp= lications were inserted that actually interfere with the desired result, ra= ther than just being unduly (it seems from the outside) complex ways of get= ting there.


=
On Wednesday, September = 24, 2014 9:25 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
=




On Wed, Sep 24, 201= 4 at 11:03 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com= > wrote:
The most clear= ly missing item in this area is the big one, a program for converting any L= ojban sentence to a formula of an appropriate logic formulary.  Or, co= nversely (or perhaps reciprocally) a set of transformations for converting = formulae of logic into grammatical sentences of Lojban.

T= he second part, converting logical formuae into gramatical sentences of Loj= ban is actually rather trivial. The Lojban to logic is non-trivial because = Lojban allows many shortcuts and non-logical elements that are not always w= ell defined, but you are never required to use those when going in the logi= c to Lojban direction..

mu'o mi'e x= orxes

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