Received: from mail-oi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]:38337) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XWqzt-0004Ca-E6 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:09:09 -0700 Received: by mail-oi0-f61.google.com with SMTP id e131sf1779151oig.16 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:08:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=CWr8Y7UIZjOCbdvq3RoCTzoG0BjoBUeqQp/vXuSid/A=; b=NW2FvFx8Firf5mP+p2yTZTF3Px2vKTZfzCyLHhHdvfIZHr/ZxeIaieMniKxF1lg2Nk k7F1nl3+9VoMRVkkjdBpQZBoA5iU0oMX4s3JMQGFo46rIdag42VRT4gMbPML7rLrkqaw o3ijpHqZVEZKTI2JHoealeeY+rqTFyxuthTbgWmhwI97QwVZVuA+gEOegJB6NAHkk+u5 DH0GAJ+CibFhwxUtL0X7e4dLOmzBsIFqsuKsduVbFVMtnFHpE9W94owX5OglAvschrHb vaoUD9x+zFZPXDrxW3diuSoxsQQ3uPdSXP44teXZYZs46gOyenW5b0NqIEwubDjssvk5 61Ow== X-Received: by 10.182.230.232 with SMTP id tb8mr38604obc.13.1411582134804; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:08:54 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.125.199 with SMTP id ms7ls378008obb.53.gmail; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:08:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.28.194 with SMTP id d2mr6220584obh.19.1411582134173; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vc0-x22a.google.com (mail-vc0-x22a.google.com [2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id u4si1182vdi.0.2014.09.24.11.08.54 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of nxt101@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a; Received: by mail-vc0-f170.google.com with SMTP id ij19so4554492vcb.15 for ; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:08:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.221.21.134 with SMTP id qs6mr3036595vcb.72.1411582133659; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.31.60.19 with HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:08:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <5f6a7dec-3c5d-477d-bd73-5bd69726b713@googlegroups.com> <1411515475.42591.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1465cea2-41be-48ac-8f02-934d4a4b904b@googlegroups.com> <88e103a9-04e1-4739-97c2-f37fa457e4a8@googlegroups.com> <90cb23e1-0ed7-4b3c-9626-c31c4c8a8076@googlegroups.com> <1411567412.85594.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411570426.39518.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411574508.45917.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 14:08:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin. From: "Romaji ####" To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: nxt101@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of nxt101@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400c:c03::22a as permitted sender) smtp.mail=nxt101@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1133ac4ca5eeb60503d3932b X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1133ac4ca5eeb60503d3932b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ok, all that are here. Where did the current discussion come from? Because I believe I am totally lost. On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: > > > On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:01 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < > lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> Both attitudinals and vocatives (and Gricean operators and evidentials >> and just about anything else I can think of) have places in the extended >> logics that comprise appropriate bases, so those are not problems. >> > > If those extended logics use the same formalism of FOPL, then their > formulas can be directly and automatically translated into Lojban (but > without using Lojban's "shortcuts", of course). If they each use a > different particular syntax, then they may not have an automatic > translation into Lojban, or at least each case would have to be analysed > separately to see how it can be accommodated. I don't think it's reasonab= le > to expect Lojban to automatically translate every formalism ever used > though. > > >> It is pretty easy -- in theory. Working out the practical details is th= e >> bitch. But I suspect the real reason it has not been done is that no on= e >> has until recently been very explicit about what needs to be done, the >> whole having been expressed in vague generalities rather than (slightly) >> more specific programs. Score a point or two for the radical revisionis= ts. >> > > A lot of work needs to be done to explain how Lojban's "shortcuts", and > its "bells and whistles", translate into something that can be called > "logical". If that's what you're saying, I agree. What I thought you were > saying, but perhaps you were not, is that you had doubts that Lojban woul= d > have any trouble expressing FOPL. That part is trivial. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lojban/f9L_hAbBcwc/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1133ac4ca5eeb60503d3932b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Ok, all that are here.
Where did the current discussio= n come from?
Because I believe I am totally lost.

On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 = at 12:46 PM, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> w= rote:


On Wed, Sep 24= , 2014 at 1:01 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban &= lt;lojban@goog= legroups.com> wrote:
<= div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Hel= vetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<= span>Both attitudinals and vocatives (and Gricean operators and evidentials= and just about anything else I can think of) have places in the extended l= ogics that comprise appropriate bases, so those are not problems.

If those extended lo= gics use the same formalism of FOPL, then their formulas can be directly an= d automatically translated into Lojban (but without using Lojban's &quo= t;shortcuts", of course). If they each use a different particular synt= ax, then they may not have an automatic translation into Lojban, or at leas= t each case would have to be analysed separately to see how it can be accom= modated. I don't think it's reasonable to expect Lojban to automati= cally translate every formalism ever used though.=C2=A0
=C2=A0
It is pretty easy -- in theory.=C2=A0 Working o= ut the practical details is the bitch.=C2=A0 But I suspect the real reason = it has not been done is that no one has until recently been very explicit a= bout what needs to be done, the whole having been expressed in vague genera= lities rather than (slightly) more specific programs.=C2=A0 Score a point o= r two for the radical revisionists.

<= div>A lot of work needs to be done to explain how Lojban's "shortc= uts", and its "bells and whistles", translate into something= that can be called "logical". If that's what you're sayi= ng, I agree. What I thought you were saying, but perhaps you were not, is t= hat you had doubts that Lojban would have any trouble expressing FOPL. That= part is trivial.

mu'o mi'= ;e xorxes=C2=A0

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