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[216.109.114.112]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k7si23116qcm.2.2014.09.24.11.37.17 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.112 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.114.112; Received: from [66.196.81.166] by nm4.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 18:37:16 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.144] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 18:37:16 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1020.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 18:37:16 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 817029.23364.bm@omp1020.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 71557 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Sep 2014 18:30:35 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: e9DBauIVM1lWZzEMR09y2xHN.qjZvyGxFYNtUKT636aBaRX FeHK.JbczoXxz.gdDBpVDnXMwq2cbZ3kTdngcbP4Qk3RZFsl8t5Xz8UxIefu Tv4k0w1.12wDpEdwdZmv4NGfQfRh_m64.uhfERodl6hJa0jZfvj.o9pv9XVR MBESZpo3Dysm9uM26Hsm7GkaCCw.3e5NhNkR61aDE7v95LCQ.CDm4aGEyu1D no0Wj2IN9Pz7Nsl3AGBesiajw4_1dwl1zzg7e1pvmu0dT63QlaTEcIGQjWqp E37l6z3mfEGwPzLitHee29u_zThACkexl_6bWf98vRPSKhw.IEoEBc93g5W1 .kug4lFbp_i2pYhVZ1StB8NQBlaZMJ9LRN2bSalXCbggcXUOOWVTsyE8VdNY pyYW0N.QXHD8Xv4qzIKf35wfAwWvBI8rNi_ms.e69M7k5diqbByEy6bZ1sJ. ignp3ZD0rvle6PmZPQ.5rKp2lotTcqgmNudnDiyp5j5PI.thII0UWq_H0.VJ UqBuYyuS3eUhXvO6ZkjcUSi2WBAp71T7IUstEugL99WXNd9P26oVJ9LXZm2k 1PzFRY1gBegorv.dP9fwMgpSid46LIbJabXar_324Sm92EUyzQDjHpUCryio W082aqVE1l9S7gdcedEjgc4byo_VH6XWnh1fwIz9fmT7LYI.7ZVH9gWltl.j KOWM2YRqc8AgBzy2XawwQjPWcdghUKH7KsUp7M.gGGLc- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:30:35 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,U29ycnk7IHlvdSB3YW5kZXJlZCBpbiBhdCB0aGUgZW5kIG9mIHRoZSBsYXRlc3Qgd2VlayBvZiBhIDYwLXllYXIgZGlzY3Vzc2lvbi4gIEkgd2FzIHN1cHBvc2VkIHRvIHdyaXRlIHVwIGEgc3VtbWFyeSAyMCB5ZWFycyBhZ28gb3Igc28sIGJ1dCBkaWQgbm90IGFuZCBzbyBtdWNoIGhhcyBjaGFuZ2VkIHNpbmNlIHRoZW4gKGFnYWluOyB0aGVyZSBoYXZlIGJlZW4gY291bnRsZXNzIGNoYW5nZXMgZHVlcyB0byBjaGFuZ2VzIGluIExpbmd1aXN0aWNzIC0tIENob21za3ksIE1vbnRhZ3VlLCBhbmQgdGhlIE5lb3MBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5f6a7dec-3c5d-477d-bd73-5bd69726b713@googlegroups.com> <1411515475.42591.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1465cea2-41be-48ac-8f02-934d4a4b904b@googlegroups.com> <88e103a9-04e1-4739-97c2-f37fa457e4a8@googlegroups.com> <90cb23e1-0ed7-4b3c-9626-c31c4c8a8076@googlegroups.com> <1411567412.85594.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411570426.39518.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411574508.45917.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1411583435.68860.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:30:35 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.112 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-1862131379-1411583435=:68860" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ---204173969-1862131379-1411583435=:68860 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry; you wandered in at the end of the latest week of a 60-year discussio= n. I was supposed to write up a summary 20 years ago or so, but did not an= d so much has changed since then (again; there have been countless changes = dues to changes in Linguistics -- Chomsky, Montague, and the Neos -- and Lo= gic -- Montague again, Kripke, and countless others from the 60s on) that i= t would be time for a new summary anyhow. Maybe your interest and an attem= pt to answer question you have or I think you should have will get me back = on track (I have started but got bogged down in details before I got the br= oad survey done).=20 On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 1:08 PM, Romaji #### wr= ote: =20 Ok, all that are here. Where did the current discussion come from? Because I believe I am totally lost. On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas w= rote: > > > >On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:01 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: > >Both attitudinals and vocatives (and Gricean operators and evidentials and= just about anything else I can think of) have places in the extended logic= s that comprise appropriate bases, so those are not problems. > > >If those extended logics use the same formalism of FOPL, then their formul= as can be directly and automatically translated into Lojban (but without us= ing Lojban's "shortcuts", of course). If they each use a different particul= ar syntax, then they may not have an automatic translation into Lojban, or = at least each case would have to be analysed separately to see how it can b= e accommodated. I don't think it's reasonable to expect Lojban to automatic= ally translate every formalism ever used though.=20 >=20 >It is pretty easy -- in theory. Working out the practical details is the = bitch. But I suspect the real reason it has not been done is that no one h= as until recently been very explicit about what needs to be done, the whole= having been expressed in vague generalities rather than (slightly) more sp= ecific programs. Score a point or two for the radical revisionists. > > >A lot of work needs to be done to explain how Lojban's "shortcuts", and it= s "bells and whistles", translate into something that can be called "logica= l". If that's what you're saying, I agree. What I thought you were saying, = but perhaps you were not, is that you had doubts that Lojban would have any= trouble expressing FOPL. That part is trivial. > > >mu'o mi'e xorxes=20 --=20 > >You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Goo= gle Groups "lojban" group. >To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/lo= jban/f9L_hAbBcwc/unsubscribe. >To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-1862131379-1411583435=:68860 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Sorry; you wandered in at the end of the latest we= ek of a 60-year discussion.  I was supposed to write up a summary 20 y= ears ago or so, but did not and so much has changed since then (again; ther= e have been countless changes dues to changes in Linguistics -- Chomsky, Mo= ntague, and the Neos -- and Logic -- Montague again, Kripke, and countless = others from the 60s on) that it would be time for a new summary anyhow. &nb= sp;Maybe your interest and an attempt to answer question you have or I thin= k you should have will get me back on track (I have started but got bogged = down in details before I got the broad survey done). 


<= div style=3D"font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial= , 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;">
On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 1:08 PM, Romaji = #### <nxt101@gmail.com> wrote:


Ok, a= ll that are here.
Where did the current discussion come from?
Because I believe I am totally lost.

On= Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 12:46 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com= > wrote:


On Wed, = Sep 24, 2014 at 1:01 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <= ;lojban@google= groups.com> wrote:
Both attitudinals and vocatives (and Gricean operators and evidentials a= nd just about anything else I can think of) have places in the extended log= ics that comprise appropriate bases, so those are not problems.

If those extended logics use th= e same formalism of FOPL, then their formulas can be directly and automatic= ally translated into Lojban (but without using Lojban's "shortcuts", of cou= rse). If they each use a different particular syntax, then they may not hav= e an automatic translation into Lojban, or at least each case would have to= be analysed separately to see how it can be accommodated. I don't think it= 's reasonable to expect Lojban to automatically translate every formalism e= ver used though. 
 = ;
It is pre= tty easy -- in theory.  Working out the practical details is the bitch= .  But I suspect the real reason it has not been done is that no one h= as until recently been very explicit about what needs to be done, the whole= having been expressed in vague generalities rather than (slightly) more sp= ecific programs.  Score a point or two for the radical revisionists.

A lot of work needs to be done to explain how Lojban's "shortcu= ts", and its "bells and whistles", translate into something that can be cal= led "logical". If that's what you're saying, I agree. What I thought you we= re saying, but perhaps you were not, is that you had doubts that Lojban wou= ld have any trouble expressing FOPL. That part is trivial.

mu'o mi'e xorx= es 
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