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[216.109.115.4]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id i3si23055qcm.3.2014.09.24.11.41.49 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:41:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.4 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.4; Received: from [66.196.81.155] by nm13.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 18:41:49 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.145] by tm1.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 18:41:49 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1021.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 18:41:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 668262.17242.bm@omp1021.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 29334 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Sep 2014 18:41:49 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: pzO8684VM1k49HvjEDGqV55MAg.qvDSMGJwZHHZLePNKh1h wTQp46s6MOj4M9EfvpUz2cOperlnL2Fo7W8s7xy4KzdwCewOsy0i.CmLjTT4 YshTkigIeKVoronCel1irRrWby39ji9TJPyRSAv4RPNKq02mpkrAYUslcOan nxA6xeZKc6IZx35ilXmy0HCYWTjWKY8vI218oE8HV7kpqWMdM7jzJIZCTTK2 o.BVKjYEORRzrYqJpZXu8HPrXtKt9Kg9uy0swiH0jsmNo4xcO_8nnuKwt1GN eVFllMg78N_FLR03Gh.Q7twyvI6BtL_ADzLNKlUMpk8IaRsxafuVMsfWatx9 xfecgBbpg00rXP3tzmMGkBUSrCfwMVkpHPtgK_1vJ9RiTxaZMHSuvqle99kQ UuSj8lzNIUMD8thpxHPtS6ZbeUhkRGEyQdPbsv1QpKDFsUkkLCgJMLBTCNc0 nO9cbNFJTqJ50tffFoYZqiLpxVOEBDNX8Rxk.4sRJpk7mgQZw2PU4EWnHeF5 f34EZPtNQnrxRvAYUGWGF5feQN2fErDGL4W7apqVy4WWJfc65mXn9GgZxIJ3 7FUN42.BSrcxweE0q_1s2dT8Ap_TlGTyqWnVp8OaGIX1lZ_39dVf5R5ILAOQ rS_tYRESfUc7E5dckf_sdw288JmqzQSlJkK_tzQmnufqH8qdOEnrXys0w4MZ eAPf21PX9k4zDXf8V7XmIy4QBb48w..6ntJi.r7yVzzQ- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:41:49 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,Tm8sIHRoZSB3b3JyeSBpcyB0aGUgb3Bwb3NpdGU6IHdoZXRoZXIgZXZlcnkgc2VudGVuY2Ugb2YgTG9qYmFuIGhhcyBhIHVuaXF1ZSAodXAgdG8gZXF1aXZhbGVuY2UsIHNheSkgcmVwcmVzZW50YXRpb24gaW4gbG9naWMgd2hpY2ggY2FuIGJlIGF1dG9tYXRpY2FsbHkgZGVyaXZlZC4gIFlvdXIgcHJvamVjdCBpcyBpbmRlZWQgdHJpdmlhbCB1bnRpbCB5b3UgdGhyb3cgaW4gYWxsIHRoZSBxdWFsaWZpZXJzOiBjb2xsb3F1aWFsLCBjb21wYWN0LCBlcmdvbm9taWMgKEkgaGF2ZSBubyBpZGVhIHdoYXQgdGhhdCABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5f6a7dec-3c5d-477d-bd73-5bd69726b713@googlegroups.com> <1411515475.42591.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1465cea2-41be-48ac-8f02-934d4a4b904b@googlegroups.com> <88e103a9-04e1-4739-97c2-f37fa457e4a8@googlegroups.com> <90cb23e1-0ed7-4b3c-9626-c31c4c8a8076@googlegroups.com> <1411567412.85594.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411570426.39518.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411574508.45917.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1411584109.21511.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 11:41:49 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.4 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-482694697-223341988-1411584109=:21511" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ---482694697-223341988-1411584109=:21511 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No, the worry is the opposite: whether every sentence of Lojban has a uniqu= e (up to equivalence, say) representation in logic which can be automatical= ly derived. Your project is indeed trivial until you throw in all the qual= ifiers: colloquial, compact, ergonomic (I have no idea what that means for = a sentence, but it seems popular these days), unambiguous, etc. Then we cl= early need a full set (whatever tat means -- enough for all the cases we kn= ow of or can think of, I suppose) of transformations, not just the "read it= as written" (with a few easy additons) version that is trivial. By way of = connecting all this up, the formula derived from a sentence is the same (up= to equivalence, of course -- but maybe not even with that condition) as th= e formula from which the sentence is derived. That is the test of the logi= cality of the language. =20 On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 11:47 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: =20 On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 1:01 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: Both attitudinals and vocatives (and Gricean operators and evidentials and = just about anything else I can think of) have places in the extended logics= that comprise appropriate bases, so those are not problems. If those extended logics use the same formalism of FOPL, then their formula= s can be directly and automatically translated into Lojban (but without usi= ng Lojban's "shortcuts", of course). If they each use a different particula= r syntax, then they may not have an automatic translation into Lojban, or a= t least each case would have to be analysed separately to see how it can be= accommodated. I don't think it's reasonable to expect Lojban to automatica= lly translate every formalism ever used though.=20 =20 It is pretty easy -- in theory. Working out the practical details is the b= itch. But I suspect the real reason it has not been done is that no one ha= s until recently been very explicit about what needs to be done, the whole = having been expressed in vague generalities rather than (slightly) more spe= cific programs. Score a point or two for the radical revisionists. A lot of work needs to be done to explain how Lojban's "shortcuts", and its= "bells and whistles", translate into something that can be called "logical= ". If that's what you're saying, I agree. What I thought you were saying, b= ut perhaps you were not, is that you had doubts that Lojban would have any = trouble expressing FOPL. That part is trivial. mu'o mi'e xorxes=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---482694697-223341988-1411584109=:21511 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
No, the worry is the opposite: whether every sente= nce of Lojban has a unique (up to equivalence, say) representation in logic= which can be automatically derived.  Your project is indeed trivial u= ntil you throw in all the qualifiers: colloquial, compact, ergonomic (I hav= e no idea what that means for a sentence, but it seems popular these days),= unambiguous, etc.  Then we clearly need a full set (whatever tat mean= s -- enough for all the cases we know of or can think of, I suppose) of tra= nsformations, not just the "read it as written" (with a few easy additons) = version that is trivial. By way of connecting all this up, the formula deri= ved from a sentence is the same (up to equivalence, of course -- but maybe = not even with that condition) as the formula from which the sentence is derived.  That is the test of the logicality of the language. &nbs= p;


On Wednesday, September 24, 2014= 11:47 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
=


=


On Wed, Se= p 24, 2014 at 1:01 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <<= a rel=3D"nofollow" shape=3D"rect" ymailto=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com= " target=3D"_blank" href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
=
Both attitudinals and voc= atives (and Gricean operators and evidentials and just about anything else = I can think of) have places in the extended logics that comprise appropriat= e bases, so those are not problems.

If those extended logics use the same form= alism of FOPL, then their formulas can be directly and automatically transl= ated into Lojban (but without using Lojban's "shortcuts", of course). If th= ey each use a different particular syntax, then they may not have an automa= tic translation into Lojban, or at least each case would have to be analysed s= eparately to see how it can be accommodated. I don't think it's reasonable = to expect Lojban to automatically translate every formalism ever used thoug= h. 
 
It is pretty easy -- in theory.  Working out the pra= ctical details is the bitch.  But I suspect the real reason it has not= been done is that no one has until recently been very explicit about what needs to be done, the whole having been expressed in vague generalities ra= ther than (slightly) more specific programs.  Score a point or two for= the radical revisionists.

A lot of work needs to be done to explain how Lojban's "shortcu= ts", and its "bells and whistles", translate into something that can be cal= led "logical". If that's what you're saying, I agree. What I thought you we= re saying, but perhaps you were not, is that you had doubts that Lojban wou= ld have any trouble expressing FOPL. That part is trivial.

mu'o mi'e xorxes 
=
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