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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 16:32:03 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2cyWVbM_JYS24f8HQs==k+B8=V5BJiArFXrE2Wx8+brrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin.
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:16 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Well, in theory in general, every sentence is derived from a formula.  The
> question is whether we can automatically derive that formula from the
> sentence.
>

With today's Lojban, in general we cannot. (For a restricted set of Lojban
sentences, we can.)


> The best (only?) way to test this is to see whether the formula team 2
> derives from a sentence supplied by team 1 is the same formula that team 1
> used to derive the sentence in the first place.
>

I don't think that would prove much. If team 1 and team 2 are minimally
competent, that test would be passed with flying colors. Indeed that test
could even be passed by two automatic converters, since conversion from
Logic to Lojban can be done automatically, and the reverse can also be done
automatically when starting from the restricted set of Lojban that the
first part would generate.

The true test would be to start with a general Lojban sentence, then
convert it to a formula (that's the hard part), and then see how well the
automatically generated sentence from that formula matches the original
sentence.


>  A weaker test is to see whether the automatically derived formula
> corresponds to the intuitive reading of the sentence as provided by
> proficient speakers who re logically sophisticated, etc.
>

There is currently no automatically derived FOPL formula for Lojban
sentences in general. (Only for a restricted subset of Lojban there is.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:16 PM, &#39;John E. Clifford&#39; via lojban =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Well, in theory in general, eve=
ry sentence is derived from a formula.=C2=A0 The question is whether we can=
 automatically derive that formula from the sentence. </div></div></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>With today&#39;s Lojban, in general we cannot. (For=
 a restricted set of Lojban sentences, we can.)</div><div>=C2=A0</div><bloc=
kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #cc=
c solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>The best (only?) wa=
y to test this is to see whether the formula team 2 derives from a sentence=
 supplied by team 1 is the same formula that team 1 used to derive the sent=
ence in the first place. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don=
&#39;t think that would prove much. If team 1 and team 2 are minimally comp=
etent, that test would be passed with flying colors. Indeed that test could=
 even be passed by two automatic converters, since conversion from Logic to=
 Lojban can be done automatically, and the reverse can also be done automat=
ically when starting from the restricted set of Lojban that the first part =
would generate.</div><div><br></div><div>The true test would be to start wi=
th a general Lojban sentence, then convert it to a formula (that&#39;s the =
hard part), and then see how well the automatically generated sentence from=
 that formula matches the original sentence.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockqu=
ote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>=C2=A0A weaker test is=
 to see whether the automatically derived formula corresponds to the intuit=
ive reading of the sentence as provided by proficient speakers who re logic=
ally sophisticated, etc.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There =
is currently no automatically derived FOPL formula for Lojban sentences in =
general. (Only for a restricted subset of Lojban there is.)</div><div><br><=
/div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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