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Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin.
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From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2cyWVbM_JYS24f8HQs==k+B8=V5BJiArFXrE2Wx8+brrQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-Id: <518ED9C5-59EC-4A27-974C-5E88ED24F83B@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:07:48 -0500
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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We are at a bit of cross purposes here.  Team 1 is using the full potential=
 of a modern theoretical grammar, one that would derive every sentence of a=
 language from some formula, not just sentences of some set trivially match=
ing the structure of the logic.  For most languages and, indeed, for most s=
entences in those languages, several non-equivalent formulae may give rise =
to the same sentence (most languages are syntactically ambiguous).  Lojban =
is planned to avoid this: a given sentence can come from only one formula (=
up to equivalence - speaking of which, of course, equivalent sentences in L=
ojban derive from the same formula or equivalent ones). This means that eve=
ry logically significant feature of the formula must be represented somehow=
 in the sentence and. If that representation is shortcut somehow, that shor=
tcut must be marked to allow a unique reconstruction.  The logic > Lojban p=
rocess and the Lojban > logic are of course distinct but presumably develop=
ed together very closely, as is the surface grammar available for ordinary =
use (PEG at present). So the tests proposed are not trivial.


Sent from my iPad

On Sep 24, 2014, at 14:32, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote=
:

>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:16 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <lojban@go=
oglegroups.com> wrote:
> Well, in theory in general, every sentence is derived from a formula.  Th=
e question is whether we can automatically derive that formula from the sen=
tence.
>=20
> With today's Lojban, in general we cannot. (For a restricted set of Lojba=
n sentences, we can.)
> =20
> The best (only?) way to test this is to see whether the formula team 2 de=
rives from a sentence supplied by team 1 is the same formula that team 1 us=
ed to derive the sentence in the first place.
>=20
> I don't think that would prove much. If team 1 and team 2 are minimally c=
ompetent, that test would be passed with flying colors. Indeed that test co=
uld even be passed by two automatic converters, since conversion from Logic=
 to Lojban can be done automatically, and the reverse can also be done auto=
matically when starting from the restricted set of Lojban that the first pa=
rt would generate.
>=20
> The true test would be to start with a general Lojban sentence, then conv=
ert it to a formula (that's the hard part), and then see how well the autom=
atically generated sentence from that formula matches the original sentence=
.
> =20
>  A weaker test is to see whether the automatically derived formula corres=
ponds to the intuitive reading of the sentence as provided by proficient sp=
eakers who re logically sophisticated, etc.
>=20
> There is currently no automatically derived FOPL formula for Lojban sente=
nces in general. (Only for a restricted subset of Lojban there is.)
>=20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>=20
> --=20
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 "lojban" group.
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 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>We are at a bit of cross =
purposes here. &nbsp;Team 1 is using the full potential of a modern theoret=
ical grammar, one that would derive every sentence of a language from some =
formula, not just sentences of some set trivially matching the structure of=
 the logic. &nbsp;For most languages and, indeed, for most sentences in tho=
se languages, several non-equivalent formulae may give rise to the same sen=
tence (most languages are syntactically ambiguous). &nbsp;Lojban is planned=
 to avoid this: a given sentence can come from only one formula (up to equi=
valence - speaking of which, of course, equivalent sentences in Lojban deri=
ve from the same formula or equivalent ones). This means that every logical=
ly significant feature of the formula must be represented somehow in the se=
ntence and. If that representation is shortcut somehow, that shortcut must =
be marked to allow a unique reconstruction. &nbsp;The logic &gt; Lojban pro=
cess and the Lojban &gt; logic are of course distinct but presumably develo=
ped together very closely, as is the surface grammar available for ordinary=
 use (PEG at present). So the tests proposed are not trivial.</div><div><br=
><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On Sep 24, 2014, at 14:32, Jorge Llamb=
=C3=ADas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail.com</=
a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div d=
ir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On=
 Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 4:16 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban=
@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Well, in theory in general, every sentence is =
derived from a formula.&nbsp; The question is whether we can automatically =
derive that formula from the sentence. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div><div>With today's Lojban, in general we cannot. (For a restricted set o=
f Lojban sentences, we can.)</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gma=
il_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-lef=
t:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>The best (only?) way to test this is t=
o see whether the formula team 2 derives from a sentence supplied by team 1=
 is the same formula that team 1 used to derive the sentence in the first p=
lace. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I don't think that would=
 prove much. If team 1 and team 2 are minimally competent, that test would =
be passed with flying colors. Indeed that test could even be passed by two =
automatic converters, since conversion from Logic to Lojban can be done aut=
omatically, and the reverse can also be done automatically when starting fr=
om the restricted set of Lojban that the first part would generate.</div><d=
iv><br></div><div>The true test would be to start with a general Lojban sen=
tence, then convert it to a formula (that's the hard part), and then see ho=
w well the automatically generated sentence from that formula matches the o=
riginal sentence.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>&nbsp;A weaker test is to see whether the automat=
ically derived formula corresponds to the intuitive reading of the sentence=
 as provided by proficient speakers who re logically sophisticated, etc.</d=
iv></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There is currently no automatical=
ly derived FOPL formula for Lojban sentences in general. (Only for a restri=
cted subset of Lojban there is.)</div><div><br></div><div>mu'o mi'e xorxes<=
/div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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