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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 17:20:59 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2fF=p13W-jKd95LkCJ1ocRrU4xCDddECBjEuO_vshnu3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin.
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:07 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> We are at a bit of cross purposes here.  Team 1 is using the full
> potential of a modern theoretical grammar, one that would derive every
> sentence of a language from some formula, not just sentences of some set
> trivially matching the structure of the logic.  For most languages and,
> indeed, for most sentences in those languages, several non-equivalent
> formulae may give rise to the same sentence (most languages are
> syntactically ambiguous).  Lojban is planned to avoid this: a given
> sentence can come from only one formula (up to equivalence - speaking of
> which, of course, equivalent sentences in Lojban derive from the same
> formula or equivalent ones). This means that every logically significant
> feature of the formula must be represented somehow in the sentence and. If
> that representation is shortcut somehow, that shortcut must be marked to
> allow a unique reconstruction.  The logic > Lojban process and the Lojban >
> logic are of course distinct but presumably developed together very
> closely, as is the surface grammar available for ordinary use (PEG at
> present). So the tests proposed are not trivial.
>

Perhaps a concrete example might help. By "formula" I mean something from
FOPL like "Ex: P(x) & ~ Q(x)"

Team 1 receives the formula and puts it into (horribly clumsy but faithful
and unambiguous) Lojban thus:
"su'o da zo'u ge broda fa da gi na ku zo'u brode fa da".

Team 2 gets the Lojban and reconstructs unambiguously the original formula:
"Ex: P(x) & ~ Q(x)"

The two teams must of course have a dictionary that says that "P" is
"broda" and "Q" is "brode", and it could happen that Team 2 comes up with
non-essential differences in the formula, such as: "Ey: P(y) & ~ Q(y)".

Any FOPL formula that team 1 receives can be subjected to this automatic
process. You obviously have something different in mind, but I can't work
out what it is..

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:07 PM, &#39;John=
 E. Clifford&#39; via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban=
@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-st=
yle:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>We are at a bit o=
f cross purposes here.=C2=A0 Team 1 is using the full potential of a modern=
 theoretical grammar, one that would derive every sentence of a language fr=
om some formula, not just sentences of some set trivially matching the stru=
cture of the logic.=C2=A0 For most languages and, indeed, for most sentence=
s in those languages, several non-equivalent formulae may give rise to the =
same sentence (most languages are syntactically ambiguous).=C2=A0 Lojban is=
 planned to avoid this: a given sentence can come from only one formula (up=
 to equivalence - speaking of which, of course, equivalent sentences in Loj=
ban derive from the same formula or equivalent ones). This means that every=
 logically significant feature of the formula must be represented somehow i=
n the sentence and. If that representation is shortcut somehow, that shortc=
ut must be marked to allow a unique reconstruction.=C2=A0 The logic &gt; Lo=
jban process and the Lojban &gt; logic are of course distinct but presumabl=
y developed together very closely, as is the surface grammar available for =
ordinary use (PEG at present). So the tests proposed are not trivial.</div>=
</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Perhaps a concrete example might hel=
p. By &quot;formula&quot; I mean something from FOPL like &quot;Ex: P(x) &a=
mp; ~ Q(x)&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>Team 1 receives the formula and p=
uts it into (horribly clumsy but faithful and unambiguous) Lojban thus: =C2=
=A0</div><div>&quot;su&#39;o da zo&#39;u ge broda fa da gi na ku zo&#39;u b=
rode fa da&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Team 2 gets the Lojban and=
 reconstructs unambiguously the original formula: &quot;Ex: P(x) &amp; ~ Q(=
x)&quot;</div><div><br></div><div>The two teams must of course have a dicti=
onary that says that &quot;P&quot; is &quot;broda&quot; and &quot;Q&quot; i=
s &quot;brode&quot;, and it could happen that Team 2 comes up with non-esse=
ntial differences in the formula, such as: &quot;Ey: P(y) &amp; ~ Q(y)&quot=
;.</div><div><br></div><div>Any FOPL formula that team 1 receives can be su=
bjected to this automatic process. You obviously have something different i=
n mind, but I can&#39;t work out what it is..</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#=
39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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