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[216.109.114.228]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k7si160015qcm.2.2014.09.24.15.43.29 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:43:29 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.228 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.114.228; Received: from [66.196.81.166] by nm11.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 22:43:28 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.125] by tm12.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 22:43:28 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1001.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 24 Sep 2014 22:43:28 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 768411.25924.bm@omp1001.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 96149 invoked by uid 60001); 24 Sep 2014 22:43:28 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: 1ly66bAVM1mPbXbwuFNYNKhQQnAWWY8fwdAJuzkXvGmExpb 9ZlyRTn.MK9si3OyR1dvf3.JTHMMuPB2ChPjch9HFuLEQPkU_0DchdsHegKM WSRV78Wzi4y_pAoK50e0xB19drUpAt0uzrvxk1zb35RKJ6CzfZ8nVC4qAxMb acWaiiZ7T2VsQkSabiM2HfLdEZwM.UGlhfhou._EtcPIjCjfmFnMEG2MWQnt Ubik1GpEbOPy1osn8sdxf7dlnKyJDmuZkWWDnYN20bQNj.FtIff5etaeZ5Un xJOssvGEJWapg8dOmSId6JJC4eHFfcVPurrB19BeksfyJZHdD9lkcF.JWuTa 5p9SRrvA_UQXoJv2rfs7AyV1BpCR..JHqxHFGWVr_dkoL_YcJaYAR4x7g.Bo 1osqwQcKQs8Ytdt_9_OpSj3yqSfcqjGih_eg0qtKBvxUQf1vMBCyt4Kh6Poi Hjak6y_mTtGR02p3Uyml5qBrkv03sg5ICUTVZw2it4r1t5C.Cb4PVrkPLXjq HHmmFTSOhi8hXeJbcp3Va9Qg4rxah7HExasHfiTP7odYBvy6cjr_MLOHvquN OH9tGGma7ELY8zd6k4WvPYLwE5T1dEzrsjzTBpf6CPuMA87egO5BGI9X1P1k GLh9pmwxoB.Q_kdSpAfU_G.W_mGHFOOZsKSc5UlLZZszpVNdOjUvQHTH6PLj bZl_c9FBNUFw8A2U6fdvFYsLK9IplW18LABNFS_MRQWQ- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:43:28 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,V2VsbCwgZ2l2ZW4gdGhhdCBmb3JtdWxhIHRoZXJlIGlzbid0IGEgbG90IHRvIGRvIGJ1dCBtYXliZSB0ZWFtIDEgY29taW5nIHVwIHdpdGggJ2RhIGdlIGJyb2RhIGdpIG5haSBicm9kZScgb3IgJ2RhIG5hIGt1IGdlIGdhbmFpIGJyb2RhIGdpIGJyb2RlJwoKCk9uIFdlZG5lc2RheSwgU2VwdGVtYmVyIDI0LCAyMDE0IDM6MjAgUE0sIEpvcmdlIExsYW1iw61hcyA8ampsbGFtYmlhc0BnbWFpbC5jb20.IHdyb3RlOgogCgoKCgpPbiBXZWQsIFNlcCAyNCwgMjAxNCBhdCA1OjA3IFBNLCAnSm9obiBFLiBDbGlmZm8BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5f6a7dec-3c5d-477d-bd73-5bd69726b713@googlegroups.com> <1411515475.42591.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1465cea2-41be-48ac-8f02-934d4a4b904b@googlegroups.com> <88e103a9-04e1-4739-97c2-f37fa457e4a8@googlegroups.com> <90cb23e1-0ed7-4b3c-9626-c31c4c8a8076@googlegroups.com> <1411567412.85594.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411570426.39518.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411574508.45917.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1411584109.21511.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2E5BA45B-ACFB-46EA-8C84-881C50F095FE@yahoo.com> <518ED9C5-59EC-4A27-974C-5E88ED24F83B@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1411598608.71845.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 15:43:28 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin. To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.228 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-928378147-1411598608=:71845" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ---204173969-928378147-1411598608=:71845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well, given that formula there isn't a lot to do but maybe team 1 coming up= with 'da ge broda gi nai brode' or 'da na ku ge ganai broda gi brode' On Wednesday, September 24, 2014 3:20 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: =20 On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:07 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban wrote: We are at a bit of cross purposes here. Team 1 is using the full potential= of a modern theoretical grammar, one that would derive every sentence of a= language from some formula, not just sentences of some set trivially match= ing the structure of the logic. For most languages and, indeed, for most s= entences in those languages, several non-equivalent formulae may give rise = to the same sentence (most languages are syntactically ambiguous). Lojban = is planned to avoid this: a given sentence can come from only one formula (= up to equivalence - speaking of which, of course, equivalent sentences in L= ojban derive from the same formula or equivalent ones). This means that eve= ry logically significant feature of the formula must be represented somehow= in the sentence and. If that representation is shortcut somehow, that shor= tcut must be marked to allow a unique reconstruction. The logic > Lojban p= rocess and the Lojban > logic are of course distinct but presumably developed together very closely, as is the surface grammar available for o= rdinary use (PEG at present). So the tests proposed are not trivial. Perhaps a concrete example might help. By "formula" I mean something from F= OPL like "Ex: P(x) & ~ Q(x)" Team 1 receives the formula and puts it into (horribly clumsy but faithful = and unambiguous) Lojban thus: =20 "su'o da zo'u ge broda fa da gi na ku zo'u brode fa da".=20 Team 2 gets the Lojban and reconstructs unambiguously the original formula:= "Ex: P(x) & ~ Q(x)" The two teams must of course have a dictionary that says that "P" is "broda= " and "Q" is "brode", and it could happen that Team 2 comes up with non-ess= ential differences in the formula, such as: "Ey: P(y) & ~ Q(y)". Any FOPL formula that team 1 receives can be subjected to this automatic pr= ocess. You obviously have something different in mind, but I can't work out= what it is.. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-928378147-1411598608=:71845 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Well, given that formula there isn't a lot to do b= ut maybe team 1 coming up with 'da ge broda gi nai brode' or 'da na ku ge g= anai broda gi brode'


On Wednesday, S= eptember 24, 2014 3:20 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wr= ote:



On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 5:07 PM, 'John E. Cliffor= d' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
We are at a bit of cros= s purposes here.  Team 1 is using the full potential of a modern theor= etical grammar, one that would derive every sentence of a language from som= e formula, not just sentences of some set trivially matching the structure = of the logic.  For most languages and, indeed, for most sentences in t= hose languages, several non-equivalent formulae may give rise to the same s= entence (most languages are syntactically ambiguous).  Lojban is planned to avoid t= his: a given sentence can come from only one formula (up to equivalence - s= peaking of which, of course, equivalent sentences in Lojban derive from the= same formula or equivalent ones). This means that every logically signific= ant feature of the formula must be represented somehow in the sentence and.= If that representation is shortcut somehow, that shortcut must be marked t= o allow a unique reconstruction.  The logic > Lojban process and th= e Lojban > logic are of course distinct but presumably developed togethe= r very closely, as is the surface grammar available for ordinary use (PEG a= t present). So the tests proposed are not trivial.
=

Perhaps a concrete example might help. B= y "formula" I mean something from FOPL like "Ex: P(x) & ~ Q(x)"

Team 1 receives the formula and puts it into (horribly clumsy but faithful and unambiguous) Lojban thus:  
"su'o da zo'u ge broda fa da gi na ku zo'u brode fa da". 

Team 2 gets the Lojban and reconstructs= unambiguously the original formula: "Ex: P(x) & ~ Q(x)"

The two teams must of course have a dictionary th= at says that "P" is "broda" and "Q" is "brode", and it could happen that Te= am 2 comes up with non-essential differences in the formula, such as: "Ey: = P(y) & ~ Q(y)".

Any FOPL formul= a that team 1 receives can be subjected to this automatic process. You obvi= ously have something different in mind, but I can't work out what it is..

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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