Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.95 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.95;
Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin.
References: <5f6a7dec-3c5d-477d-bd73-5bd69726b713@googlegroups.com> <1411515475.42591.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1465cea2-41be-48ac-8f02-934d4a4b904b@googlegroups.com> <88e103a9-04e1-4739-97c2-f37fa457e4a8@googlegroups.com> <90cb23e1-0ed7-4b3c-9626-c31c4c8a8076@googlegroups.com> <CAO7bV+ivxnfLe8WfvKnhKXS5NPgu5Eex=HdrD=X=6n9MTtFobQ@mail.gmail.com> <CANbwn5AeGqz+x0os-=21CFxVv8b=dRSL85ff0ddvHx9-nf8SsQ@mail.gmail.com> <1411567412.85594.YahooMailNeo@web181102.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2dnODduDUJ9HpiUbomobj80-xMggQ72kjwpYOSNwhQ3Mw@mail.gmail.com> <1411570426.39518.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2dYH5RMOrhwdn1_gaefsT1U6FLkypwVNhgb5-TyU-Wemw@mail.gmail.com> <1411574508.45917.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2cMv8A74cb5YcSXte1UCBADWE_MJoRZAzvWRhq_AVhOLQ@mail.gmail.com> <1411584109.21511.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2faAMD6Yk-iqC+899MhFnBrVv7O3UP0SG=SSe=V14O2eg@mail.gmail.com> <2E5BA45B-ACFB-46EA-8C84-881C50F095FE@yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2cyWVbM_JYS24f8HQs==k+B8=V5BJiArFXrE2Wx8+brrQ@mail.gmail.com> <518ED9C5-59EC-4A27-974C-5E88ED24F83B@yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2fF=p13W-jKd95LkCJ1ocRrU4xCDddECBjEuO_vshnu3Q@mail.gmail.com> <1411598608.71845.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <CAO7tK2fnQrK-VpwbWYRFLst9NZCKuPk1ZT+J0E6Pcb+Ut2TeAg@mail.gmail.com>
From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2fnQrK-VpwbWYRFLst9NZCKuPk1ZT+J0E6Pcb+Ut2TeAg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-Id: <3D058966-CCF4-42A0-97CC-972F644E8D3C@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 18:16:34 -0500
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0)
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary=Apple-Mail-75879E2E-6ECA-4AF3-BC0D-61792C1F5681
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
X-Spam_score: -0.5
X-Spam_score_int: -4
X-Spam_bar: /

--Apple-Mail-75879E2E-6ECA-4AF3-BC0D-61792C1F5681
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

As the mystics say, the way up is the way down. We won't get the way From L=
ojban to logic right if we haven't worked out the other direction, because =
only then can we be sure that Lojban has incorporated all the clues needed.=
  In the examples here, some of the shifts are very secondary, but deprenex=
ification is surely essential (and dangerous, as you say, though this case =
is Ok apparently) and so is this sort of collapse.  The Principia to Polish=
 shift and the logical moves are just dressing.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 24, 2014, at 18:03, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote=
:

>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 7:43 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@goo=
glegroups.com> wrote:
> Well, given that formula there isn't a lot to do but maybe team 1 coming =
up with 'da ge broda gi nai brode' or 'da na ku ge ganai broda gi brode'
>=20
> That would be team 1 making extra Lojban -> Lojban moves that are not alw=
ays well defined, so risking messing up. If team 1 sticks with vanilla FOPL=
 -> Lojban without trying any additional fancy Lojban -> Lojban shortcuts, =
then they can be assured that team 2 will be able to do the Lojban -> FOPL =
without any trouble.
>=20
> That's not to say that we don't need to define all the Lojban -> Lojban s=
hortcuts, of course we do, but they are not required in order to be able to=
 express any FOPL in Lojban. They are required to go the other way, and exp=
ress any Lojban in FOPL
>=20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>  =20
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an=
 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--Apple-Mail-75879E2E-6ECA-4AF3-BC0D-61792C1F5681
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>As the mystics say, the w=
ay up is the way down. We won't get the way From Lojban to logic right if w=
e haven't worked out the other direction, because only then can we be sure =
that Lojban has incorporated all the clues needed. &nbsp;In the examples he=
re, some of the shifts are very secondary, but deprenexification is surely =
essential (and dangerous, as you say, though this case is Ok apparently) an=
d so is this sort of collapse. &nbsp;The Principia to Polish shift and the =
logical moves are just dressing.<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On =
Sep 24, 2014, at 18:03, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambia=
s@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div><div></div><b=
lockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 7:43 PM, 'John E C=
lifford' via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegr=
oups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<b=
r><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-c=
olor:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida G=
rande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div><span>Well, given that formula there =
isn't a lot to do but maybe team 1 coming up with 'da ge broda gi nai brode=
' or 'da na ku ge ganai broda gi brode'</span></div></div></div></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div>That would be team 1 making extra Lojban -&gt; Lojban=
 moves that are not always well defined, so risking messing up. If team 1 s=
ticks with vanilla FOPL -&gt; Lojban without trying any additional fancy Lo=
jban -&gt; Lojban shortcuts, then they can be assured that team 2 will be a=
ble to do the Lojban -&gt; FOPL without any trouble.</div><div><br></div><d=
iv>That's not to say that we don't need to define all the Lojban -&gt; Lojb=
an shortcuts, of course we do, but they are not required in order to be abl=
e to express any FOPL in Lojban. They are required to go the other way, and=
 express any Lojban in FOPL</div><div><br></div><div>mu'o mi'e xorxes</div>=
<div>&nbsp;&nbsp;</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

--Apple-Mail-75879E2E-6ECA-4AF3-BC0D-61792C1F5681--