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Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 20:27:24 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2fuQGcProSj4VL7P2V3ZYQ5zkRRzuhFga0Jry7N0p3QFA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin.
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 8:16 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> As the mystics say, the way up is the way down. We won't get the way From
> Lojban to logic right if we haven't worked out the other direction, because
> only then can we be sure that Lojban has incorporated all the clues needed.
>

For me there's just no way one can get the FOPL to Lojban wrong, if one
knows the very simple and trivial rules that apply.


>  In the examples here, some of the shifts are very secondary, but
> deprenexification is surely essential
>

Deprenexification is needed for getting concise/ergonomic forms, but not to
get the logic right in the first place.


> (and dangerous, as you say, though this case is Ok apparently) and so is
> this sort of collapse.  The Principia to Polish shift and the logical moves
> are just dressing.
>

The move is fine in this simple case. Getting the rule precisely right for
the general case needs some consideration of several issues, but it's still
one of the easy ones. But this is already part of Lojban->Lojban moves, not
part of the FOPL->Lojban step,

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 8:16 PM, &#39;John E. Clifford&#39; via lojban =
<span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"=
_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>As the mystics say, the way up =
is the way down. We won&#39;t get the way From Lojban to logic right if we =
haven&#39;t worked out the other direction, because only then can we be sur=
e that Lojban has incorporated all the clues needed. </div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>For me there&#39;s just no way one can get the FOPL =
to Lojban wrong, if one knows the very simple and trivial rules that apply.=
<br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#=
FFFFFF"><div>=C2=A0In the examples here, some of the shifts are very second=
ary, but deprenexification is surely essential </div></div></blockquote><di=
v><br></div><div>Deprenexification is needed for getting concise/ergonomic =
forms, but not to get the logic right in the first place.</div><div>=C2=A0<=
/div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-le=
ft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>(and dang=
erous, as you say, though this case is Ok apparently) and so is this sort o=
f collapse.=C2=A0 The Principia to Polish shift and the logical moves are j=
ust dressing.<br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The move is f=
ine in this simple case. Getting the rule precisely right for the general c=
ase needs some consideration of several issues, but it&#39;s still one of t=
he easy ones. But this is already part of Lojban-&gt;Lojban moves, not part=
 of the FOPL-&gt;Lojban step, =C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#=
39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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