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Subject: Re: [lojban] Mathy person interested in concept, unsure where to begin.
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From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Message-Id: <9E8295E3-CC14-4A79-93CC-EEDAD6780920@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2014 21:21:41 -0500
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Well, exactly when which rules apply is probably an important issue.  We kn=
ow that pronoun rules are late and deprenexification is fairly early, but j=
ust what comes where is going to depend on best ways to set limits.  The cu=
rrent grammar is probably a target for the deeper layers, but, as it stands=
, it seems to have lost some essential pieces, so that it looks like the sa=
me sentence may come from more than one nonequivalent formula even though i=
t has only one parse.  The easiest cases seem to come from deprenexificatio=
n, where scope is not specified (can't find my list at the moment).

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 24, 2014, at 18:27, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote=
:

>=20
>=20
> On Wed, Sep 24, 2014 at 8:16 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <lojban@go=
oglegroups.com> wrote:
> As the mystics say, the way up is the way down. We won't get the way From=
 Lojban to logic right if we haven't worked out the other direction, becaus=
e only then can we be sure that Lojban has incorporated all the clues neede=
d.
>=20
> For me there's just no way one can get the FOPL to Lojban wrong, if one k=
nows the very simple and trivial rules that apply.
> =20
>  In the examples here, some of the shifts are very secondary, but deprene=
xification is surely essential
>=20
> Deprenexification is needed for getting concise/ergonomic forms, but not =
to get the logic right in the first place.
> =20
> (and dangerous, as you say, though this case is Ok apparently) and so is =
this sort of collapse.  The Principia to Polish shift and the logical moves=
 are just dressing.
>=20
> The move is fine in this simple case. Getting the rule precisely right fo=
r the general case needs some consideration of several issues, but it's sti=
ll one of the easy ones. But this is already part of Lojban->Lojban moves, =
not part of the FOPL->Lojban step, =20
>=20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
>=20
> --=20
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 "lojban" group.
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 email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Well, exactly when which =
rules apply is probably an important issue. &nbsp;We know that pronoun rule=
s are late and deprenexification is fairly early, but just what comes where=
 is going to depend on best ways to set limits. &nbsp;The current grammar i=
s probably a target for the deeper layers, but, as it stands, it seems to h=
ave lost some essential pieces, so that it looks like the same sentence may=
 come from more than one nonequivalent formula even though it has only one =
parse. &nbsp;The easiest cases seem to come from deprenexification, where s=
cope is not specified (can't find my list at the moment).<br><br>Sent from =
my iPad</div><div><br>On Sep 24, 2014, at 18:27, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<b=
r><br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br>=
<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Wed, Sep 24, 2=
014 at 8:16 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.c=
om</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"marg=
in:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"=
#FFFFFF"><div>As the mystics say, the way up is the way down. We won't get =
the way From Lojban to logic right if we haven't worked out the other direc=
tion, because only then can we be sure that Lojban has incorporated all the=
 clues needed. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>For me there's =
just no way one can get the FOPL to Lojban wrong, if one knows the very sim=
ple and trivial rules that apply.<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pa=
dding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>&nbsp;In the examples here, s=
ome of the shifts are very secondary, but deprenexification is surely essen=
tial </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Deprenexification is need=
ed for getting concise/ergonomic forms, but not to get the logic right in t=
he first place.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div b=
gcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>(and dangerous, as you say, though this case is Ok =
apparently) and so is this sort of collapse.&nbsp; The Principia to Polish =
shift and the logical moves are just dressing.<br></div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>The move is fine in this simple case. Getting the rule =
precisely right for the general case needs some consideration of several is=
sues, but it's still one of the easy ones. But this is already part of Lojb=
an-&gt;Lojban moves, not part of the FOPL-&gt;Lojban step, &nbsp;</div><div=
><br></div><div>mu'o mi'e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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