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Date: Fri, 26 Sep 2014 10:36:32 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2c+379qSzH1vWC5w0QFmaKMw75hoWgjoc1CumhF=wkz4g@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Tenseless predicates mean -able?
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 9:56 AM, TR NS <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:

> I just read section 3.8 of Loglan 1. In it JCB talks about how the
> tenseless predictions entail the concept of *can*. For example, he gives
> the word {ditca} as meaning "X teaches Y to W". Then he gives the example=
:
>
>     Da fu ditca
>
> Where "fu" converts the 1st and 3rd places. Translated into Lojban (which
> has as different order) I think it is:
>
>     da se ctuca
>
> JCB says it means "X is teachable" and goes on to reinforce the concept
> that, lacking a tense operator, the predicate entails the meaning of *can=
*.
> Quote, "For in Loglan the fundemental thing about an object is not whethe=
r
> it *has* been eaten or taught, but whether it is the kind of thing that
> *can* be eaten or taught." I see no mention of this idea in Lojban's
> grammar, and in Lojban I would translate it as "X is a student". Those
> translations are similar but certainly not the same thing.
>
> Did I miss something? Which is correct?
>

This is about modality, not tense. See for example
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tense%E2%80%93aspect%E2%80%93mood for the
distinction between tense aspect and mood, that Lojban tries not to
conflate.

Consider for example:

ko'a pu ka'e se ctuca
He was teachable.

ko'a ca ka'e se ctuca
He is teachable.

ko'a ba ka'e se ctuca
He will be teachable.

It's interesting what the Wikipedia article on tense-aspect-mood says about
creoles, because it seems to apply quite well to Lojban too:

<<
Creoles, both Atlantic and non-Atlantic, tend to share a large number of
syntactic features, including the avoidance of bound morphemes. Tense,
aspect, and mood are usually indicated with separate invariant pre-verbal
auxiliaries. Typically the unmarked verb is used for either the timeless
habitual or the stative aspect or the past perfective tense=E2=80=93aspect
combination. In general creoles tend to put less emphasis on marking tense
than on marking aspect. Typically aspectually unmarked stative verbs can be
marked with the anterior tense, and non-statives, with or without the
anterior marker, can optionally be marked for the progressive, habitual, or
completive aspect or for the irrealis mood. In some creoles the anterior
can be used to mark the counterfactual. When any of tense, aspect, and
modality are specified, they are typically indicated separately with the
invariant pre-verbal markers in the sequence anterior relative tense (prior
to the time focused on), irrealis mode (conditional or future),
non-punctual aspect.
>>

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Fri, Sep 26, 2014 at 9:56 AM, TR NS <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:transfire@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">transfire@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">I just read section 3.8 =
of Loglan 1. In it JCB talks about how the tenseless predictions entail the=
 concept of *can*. For example, he gives the word {ditca} as meaning &quot;=
X teaches Y to W&quot;. Then he gives the example:<div><br></div><div>=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 Da fu ditca</div><div><br></div><div>Where &quot;fu&quot; conver=
ts the 1st and 3rd places. Translated into Lojban (which has as different o=
rder) I think it is:</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 da se ctuca</di=
v><div><br></div><div><div>JCB says it means &quot;X is teachable&quot; and=
 goes on to reinforce the concept that, lacking a tense operator, the predi=
cate entails the meaning of *can*. Quote, &quot;For in Loglan the fundement=
al thing about an object is not whether it *has* been eaten or taught, but =
whether it is the kind of thing that *can* be eaten or taught.&quot; I see =
no mention of this idea in Lojban&#39;s grammar, and in Lojban I would tran=
slate it as &quot;X is a student&quot;. Those translations are similar but =
certainly not the same thing.</div></div><div><br></div><div>Did I miss som=
ething? Which is correct?</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This =
is about modality, not tense. See for example <a href=3D"http://en.wikipedi=
a.org/wiki/Tense%E2%80%93aspect%E2%80%93mood">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/=
Tense%E2%80%93aspect%E2%80%93mood</a> for the distinction between tense asp=
ect and mood, that Lojban tries not to conflate.</div><div><br></div><div>C=
onsider for example:</div><div><br></div><div>ko&#39;a pu ka&#39;e se ctuca=
</div><div>He was teachable.</div><div><br></div><div>ko&#39;a ca ka&#39;e =
se ctuca</div><div>He is teachable.</div><div><br></div></div>ko&#39;a ba k=
a&#39;e se ctuca</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">He will be teachable.</div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br></div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">It&#39;s i=
nteresting what the Wikipedia article on tense-aspect-mood says about creol=
es, because it seems to apply quite well to Lojban too:</div><div><br></div=
>&lt;&lt;<br>Creoles, both Atlantic and non-Atlantic, tend to share a large=
 number of syntactic features, including the avoidance of bound morphemes. =
Tense, aspect, and mood are usually indicated with separate invariant pre-v=
erbal auxiliaries. Typically the unmarked verb is used for either the timel=
ess habitual or the stative aspect or the past perfective tense=E2=80=93asp=
ect combination. In general creoles tend to put less emphasis on marking te=
nse than on marking aspect. Typically aspectually unmarked stative verbs ca=
n be marked with the anterior tense, and non-statives, with or without the =
anterior marker, can optionally be marked for the progressive, habitual, or=
 completive aspect or for the irrealis mood. In some creoles the anterior c=
an be used to mark the counterfactual. When any of tense, aspect, and modal=
ity are specified, they are typically indicated separately with the invaria=
nt pre-verbal markers in the sequence anterior relative tense (prior to the=
 time focused on), irrealis mode (conditional or future), non-punctual aspe=
ct.<div>&gt;&gt;</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><di=
v><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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