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Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 16:28:03 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Speaker specificity: {.i da'i na vajni}
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 1:56 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:

> I understand {le broda} to be short for {lo co'e voi ke'a broda}, which is
> probably equivalent to unbound {ko'a voi ke'a broda}, tho that depends on
> whether unbound {ko'a} is interpreted as definite (like third person
> pronouns). Do you disagree? If not, don't the {co'e} and, contingently, the
> {voi} give a meaning usefully and intelligibly distinct from {lo broda}?
>
Is that just adding non-veridicality to "lo", or something else to do with
specificity?

There is some dispute about what it means for a restrictive clause to
attach to a sumti without an accompanying quantifier. Some say that "ti poi
toldi" means something like "those among these that are butterflies",
whereas others say it means something like "these, which I'm helping you to
identify by telling you that they are butterflies". I'm not sure if in
"ko'a voi broda" you intend "ko'a" to have more referents than "le broda",
from which the restrictive voi clause will select some, or whether it is
meant to have the same referents of "le broda" with the restrictive voi
clause being there to help identify what they are.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 1:56 PM, And Rosta <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><p dir=
=3D"ltr">I understand {le broda} to be short for {lo co&#39;e voi ke&#39;a =
broda}, which is probably equivalent to unbound {ko&#39;a voi ke&#39;a brod=
a}, tho that depends on whether unbound {ko&#39;a} is interpreted as defini=
te (like third person pronouns). Do you disagree? If not, don&#39;t the {co=
&#39;e} and, contingently, the {voi} give a meaning usefully and intelligib=
ly distinct from {lo broda}?</p></span></blockquote><div>Is that just addin=
g non-veridicality to &quot;lo&quot;, or something else to do with specific=
ity?</div><div><br></div><div>There is some dispute about what it means for=
 a restrictive clause to attach to a sumti without an accompanying quantifi=
er. Some say that &quot;ti poi toldi&quot; means something like &quot;those=
 among these that are butterflies&quot;, whereas others say it means someth=
ing like &quot;these, which I&#39;m helping you to identify by telling you =
that they are butterflies&quot;. I&#39;m not sure if in &quot;ko&#39;a voi =
broda&quot; you intend &quot;ko&#39;a&quot; to have more referents than &qu=
ot;le broda&quot;, from which the restrictive voi clause will select some, =
or whether it is meant to have the same referents of &quot;le broda&quot; w=
ith the restrictive voi clause being there to help identify what they are.<=
/div><div>=C2=A0</div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></d=
iv></div></div>

<p></p>

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