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Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 23:43:11 +0100
Message-ID: <CACf3dPkmVs-vhaPMq1Gp23ze8hg3fmdDw-D8WurzCY4e8zPLwg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Speaker specificity: {.i da'i na vajni}
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
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On 27 Sep 2014 20:28, "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 1:56 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I understand {le broda} to be short for {lo co'e voi ke'a broda}, which
is probably equivalent to unbound {ko'a voi ke'a broda}, tho that depends
on whether unbound {ko'a} is interpreted as definite (like third person
pronouns). Do you disagree? If not, don't the {co'e} and, contingently, the
{voi} give a meaning usefully and intelligibly distinct from {lo broda}?
>
> Is that just adding non-veridicality to "lo", or something else to do
with specificity?

The specificity comes from the {co'e}.

> There is some dispute about what it means for a restrictive clause to
attach to a sumti without an accompanying quantifier. Some say that "ti poi
toldi" means something like "those among these that are butterflies",

That's how I'd interpret it.

whereas others say it means something like "these, which I'm helping you to
identify by telling you that they are butterflies".

That looks like {ti noi toldi}.

I'm not sure if in "ko'a voi broda" you intend "ko'a" to have more
referents than "le broda", from which the restrictive voi clause will
select some, or whether it is meant to have the same referents of "le
broda" with the restrictive voi clause being there to help identify what
they are.

I had misremembered {voi}. I mean rather that {le broda} is {lo co'e voi'i
ke'a broda}, where {voi'i} is nonveridical {noi} (I haven't found an
existing experimental cmavo for that in jbovlaste, but I may have searched
with insufficient diligence). {Voi} itself seems utterly useless: has it
ever been used correctly and meaningfully?

The nonveridicality is a natural consequence of the identificatory function
of the relative clause.

In other words, {le} is specificity (co'e) plus identificatory clause
(voi'i).

--And.

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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On 27 Sep 2014 20:28, &quot;Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 1:56 PM, And Rosta &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:and.r=
osta@gmail.com">and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I understand {le broda} to be short for {lo co&#39;e voi ke&#39;a =
broda}, which is probably equivalent to unbound {ko&#39;a voi ke&#39;a brod=
a}, tho that depends on whether unbound {ko&#39;a} is interpreted as defini=
te (like third person pronouns). Do you disagree? If not, don&#39;t the {co=
&#39;e} and, contingently, the {voi} give a meaning usefully and intelligib=
ly distinct from {lo broda}?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Is that just adding non-veridicality to &quot;lo&quot;, or something e=
lse to do with specificity?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The specificity comes from the {co&#39;e}.<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; There is some dispute about what it means for a restric=
tive clause to attach to a sumti without an accompanying quantifier. Some s=
ay that &quot;ti poi toldi&quot; means something like &quot;those among the=
se that are butterflies&quot;, </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">That&#39;s how I&#39;d interpret it.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">whereas others say it means something like &quot;these, whic=
h I&#39;m helping you to identify by telling you that they are butterflies&=
quot;.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">That looks like {ti noi toldi}.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"> I&#39;m not sure if in &quot;ko&#39;a voi broda&quot; you i=
ntend &quot;ko&#39;a&quot; to have more referents than &quot;le broda&quot;=
, from which the restrictive voi clause will select some, or whether it is =
meant to have the same referents of &quot;le broda&quot; with the restricti=
ve voi clause being there to help identify what they are.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">I had misremembered {voi}. I mean rather that {le broda} is =
{lo co&#39;e voi&#39;i ke&#39;a broda}, where {voi&#39;i} is nonveridical {=
noi} (I haven&#39;t found an existing experimental cmavo for that in jbovla=
ste, but I may have searched with insufficient diligence). {Voi} itself see=
ms utterly useless: has it ever been used correctly and meaningfully?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The nonveridicality is a natural consequence of the identifi=
catory function of the relative clause.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">In other words, {le} is specificity (co&#39;e) plus identifi=
catory clause (voi&#39;i).</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--And.</p>

<p></p>

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