Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 17:01:22 -0700 (PDT)
From: mukti <shunpiker@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Message-Id: <232bdde6-3df1-448f-94d8-0be0fc902bb5@googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2f76zV9SD36y4sNaAc+rAx_h6VYpyumgwPTYu43urOfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <b15b8cb4-2f0f-45e4-b630-6480ed7d4654@googlegroups.com>
 <CAO7tK2f76zV9SD36y4sNaAc+rAx_h6VYpyumgwPTYu43urOfJQ@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Speaker specificity: {.i da'i na vajni}
MIME-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Type: multipart/alternative; 
	boundary="----=_Part_1454_1142869417.1411862482331"
X-Spam_score: -2.0
X-Spam_score_int: -19
X-Spam_bar: --

------=_Part_1454_1142869417.1411862482331
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

 
I thank you sincerely for demolishing my examples. A few follow-ups.

*"me voy a casar con una mujer que tiene mucho dinero"*

Given a situation where the speaker is identifying more than one woman, I 
could accept "mujer que tiene mucho dinero" -- less "una" -- to be a 
collective reference, and as specific as we might consider such a reference 
to be. I'm thinking how I might represent that in lojban with "una" in the 
outer quantifier:

{pa le ricfu ninmu}

But then I wonder: What would it look like without a given number?

*"me voy a casar con las mujeres que tiene mucho dinero"*

Setting aside the issue of whether these marriages are intended 
concurrently or consecutively, how distinct must the enumeration of brides 
be in order for the sentence to be correct? Does that question make any 
sense? I don't actually expect a natural language to have a clear policy. 
But I think it's fair to ask where lojban comes down on such things. To the 
point, what would the standard of specific reference be for this statement?

*{mi ba speni le ricfu ninmu}*

Is the answer different if we add an inner quantifier that describes a 
large and/or vague quantity?

*{mi ba speni le so'i ricfu ninmu}*

How does one refer specifically to an imprecise number of individuals? Does 
this touch upon the "levels of specificity" you suggested? Can {le} as 
presently defined ("refers specifically to an individual or individuals 
that the speaker has in mind") tolerate continuous, or even graded, levels 
of specificity? Is there any supposed limit to the number of individuals 
that can be held in mind at once? And can {le} only be used with countables?

mi'e la mukti mu'o

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

------=_Part_1454_1142869417.1411862482331
Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">


<p class=3D"p1">I thank you sincerely for demolishing my examples. A few fo=
llow-ups.</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><p cl=
ass=3D"p2"><i>"me voy a casar con una mujer que tiene mucho dinero"</i></p>=
</blockquote>
<p class=3D"p2">Given a situation where the speaker is identifying more tha=
n one woman, I could accept "mujer que tiene mucho dinero" -- less "una" --=
 to be a collective reference, and as specific as we might consider such a =
reference to be. I'm thinking how I might represent that in lojban with "un=
a" in the outer quantifier:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><p cl=
ass=3D"p1">{pa le ricfu ninmu}</p></blockquote>
<p class=3D"p1">But then I wonder: What would it look like without a given =
number?</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><p cl=
ass=3D"p2"><i>"me voy a casar con las mujeres que tiene mucho dinero"</i></=
p></blockquote>
<p class=3D"p2">Setting aside the issue of whether these marriages are inte=
nded concurrently or consecutively, how distinct must the enumeration of br=
ides be in order for the sentence to be correct? Does that question make an=
y sense? I don't actually expect a natural language to have a clear policy.=
 But I think it's fair to ask where lojban comes down on such things. To th=
e point, what would the standard of specific reference be for this statemen=
t?</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><p cl=
ass=3D"p1"><i>{mi ba speni le ricfu ninmu}</i></p></blockquote>
<p class=3D"p1">Is the answer different if we add an inner quantifier that =
describes a large and/or vague quantity?</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin: 0 0 0 40px; border: none; padding: 0px;"><p cl=
ass=3D"p2"><i>{mi ba speni le so'i ricfu ninmu}</i></p></blockquote>
<p class=3D"p1">How does one refer specifically to an imprecise number of i=
ndividuals? Does this touch upon the "levels of specificity" you suggested?=
 Can {le} as presently defined ("refers specifically to an individual or in=
dividuals that the speaker has in mind") tolerate continuous, or even grade=
d, levels of specificity? Is there any supposed limit to the number of indi=
viduals that can be held in mind at once? And can {le} only be used with co=
untables?</p>
<p class=3D"p2">mi'e la mukti mu'o</p></div>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &=
quot;lojban&quot; group.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsub=
scribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br />
Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">http:=
//groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br />
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout">http=
s://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br />

------=_Part_1454_1142869417.1411862482331--