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Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 21:43:49 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Speaker specificity: {.i da'i na vajni}
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 7:43 PM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 27 Sep 2014 20:28, "Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas" <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > Is that just adding non-veridicality to "lo", or something else to do
> with specificity?
>
> The specificity comes from the {co'e}.
>
Even if "co'e" is some specific predicate that the speaker has in mind, I
don't think "lo co'e" has to have specific referents, since any predicate
could have non specific referents. Maybe "co'e" is meant to stand for the
predicate "x1 is/are certain x2".

I had misremembered {voi}. I mean rather that {le broda} is {lo co'e voi'i
> ke'a broda}, where {voi'i} is nonveridical {noi} (I haven't found an
> existing experimental cmavo for that in jbovlaste, but I may have searche=
d
> with insufficient diligence). {Voi} itself seems utterly useless: has it
> ever been used correctly and meaningfully?
>
I don't think it has seen much use at all. I'm sure the irci boys will soon
find a better use for it since they seem to be re-purposing all those
wasted one syllable cmavo like "tau", "lau" and such.


> The nonveridicality is a natural consequence of the identificatory
> function of the relative clause.
>
> In other words, {le} is specificity (co'e) plus identificatory clause
> (voi'i).
>
I think I would rather have a predicate that meant "certain" instead of a
gadri for specificity. Or at least we could define "le" in terms of that
predicate.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 7:43 PM, And Rosta <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a hre=
f=3D"mailto:and.rosta@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">and.rosta@gmail.com</a>&=
gt;</span> wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px =
0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-l=
eft-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D""><p dir=3D"ltr">
On 27 Sep 2014 20:28, &quot;Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:jjllambias@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote=
:<br>
&gt;<br>&gt;<br>
&gt; Is that just adding non-veridicality to &quot;lo&quot;, or something e=
lse to do with specificity?</p>
</span><p dir=3D"ltr">The specificity comes from the {co&#39;e}.</p></block=
quote><div>Even if &quot;co&#39;e&quot; is some specific predicate that the=
 speaker has in mind, I don&#39;t think &quot;lo co&#39;e&quot; has to have=
 specific referents, since any predicate could have non specific referents.=
 Maybe &quot;co&#39;e&quot; is meant to stand for the predicate &quot;x1 is=
/are certain x2&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail=
_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left=
-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D=
"ltr"></p><span class=3D"">
<p dir=3D"ltr">I had misremembered {voi}. I mean rather that {le broda} is =
{lo co&#39;e voi&#39;i ke&#39;a broda}, where {voi&#39;i} is nonveridical {=
noi} (I haven&#39;t found an existing experimental cmavo for that in jbovla=
ste, but I may have searched with insufficient diligence). {Voi} itself see=
ms utterly useless: has it ever been used correctly and meaningfully?<br></=
p></span></blockquote><div>I don&#39;t think it has seen much use at all. I=
&#39;m sure the irci boys will soon find a better use for it since they see=
m to be re-purposing all those wasted one syllable cmavo like &quot;tau&quo=
t;, &quot;lau&quot; and such.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-l=
eft-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><span =
class=3D""><p dir=3D"ltr"></p></span>
<p dir=3D"ltr">The nonveridicality is a natural consequence of the identifi=
catory function of the relative clause.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">In other words, {le} is specificity (co&#39;e) plus identifi=
catory clause (voi&#39;i).</p></blockquote><div>I think I would rather have=
 a predicate that meant &quot;certain&quot; instead of a gadri for specific=
ity. Or at least we could define &quot;le&quot; in terms of that predicate.=
</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div>=C2=A0</div></=
div></div></div>

<p></p>

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