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Date: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 22:24:54 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Speaker specificity: {.i da'i na vajni}
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 9:01 PM, mukti <shunpiker@gmail.com> wrote:

> I thank you sincerely for demolishing my examples. A few follow-ups.
>
> *"me voy a casar con una mujer que tiene mucho dinero"*
>
> Given a situation where the speaker is identifying more than one woman, I
> could accept "mujer que tiene mucho dinero" -- less "una" -- to be a
> collective reference, and as specific as we might consider such a reference
> to be. I'm thinking how I might represent that in lojban with "una" in the
> outer quantifier:
>
> {pa le ricfu ninmu}
>
> But then I wonder: What would it look like without a given number?
>
> *"me voy a casar con las mujeres que tiene mucho dinero"*
>
>
("tienen")


> Setting aside the issue of whether these marriages are intended
> concurrently or consecutively, how distinct must the enumeration of brides
> be in order for the sentence to be correct? Does that question make any
> sense?
>
The sentence with "las" sounds somewhat awkward, like the English "I will
marry the women that have a lot of money". To get the plural specific
reading you can use "unas": "me voy a casar con unas mujeres que tienen
mucho dinero"/"I will marry some women that have a lot of money".

> I don't actually expect a natural language to have a clear policy. But I
> think it's fair to ask where lojban comes down on such things. To the
> point, what would the standard of specific reference be for this statement?
>
> *{mi ba speni le ricfu ninmu}*
>
> Is the answer different if we add an inner quantifier that describes a
> large and/or vague quantity?
>
> *{mi ba speni le so'i ricfu ninmu}*
>
> How does one refer specifically to an imprecise number of individuals?
>

There's experimental "xo'e".

Does this touch upon the "levels of specificity" you suggested? Can {le} as
> presently defined ("refers specifically to an individual or individuals
> that the speaker has in mind") tolerate continuous, or even graded, levels
> of specificity? Is there any supposed limit to the number of individuals
> that can be held in mind at once? And can {le} only be used with countables?
>
Good questions, but I don't know...

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">On Sat, Sep 27, 2014 at 9:01 PM, mukti <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:shunpiker@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">shunpiker@gmail.com</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">


<p>I thank you sincerely for demolishing my examples. A few follow-ups.</p>=
<span>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><p><i>&quot=
;me voy a casar con una mujer que tiene mucho dinero&quot;</i></p></blockqu=
ote>
</span><p>Given a situation where the speaker is identifying more than one =
woman, I could accept &quot;mujer que tiene mucho dinero&quot; -- less &quo=
t;una&quot; -- to be a collective reference, and as specific as we might co=
nsider such a reference to be. I&#39;m thinking how I might represent that =
in lojban with &quot;una&quot; in the outer quantifier:</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><p>{pa le r=
icfu ninmu} =C2=A0</p></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">
<p>But then I wonder: What would it look like without a given number?</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><p><i>&quot=
;me voy a casar con las mujeres que tiene mucho dinero&quot;</i></p></block=
quote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>(&quot;tienen&quot;)</div><div=
>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;b=
order-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">
<p>Setting aside the issue of whether these marriages are intended concurre=
ntly or consecutively, how distinct must the enumeration of brides be in or=
der for the sentence to be correct? Does that question make any sense?</p><=
/div></blockquote><div>The sentence with &quot;las&quot; sounds somewhat aw=
kward, like the English &quot;I will marry the women that have a lot of mon=
ey&quot;. To get the plural specific reading you can use &quot;unas&quot;: =
&quot;me voy a casar con unas mujeres que tienen mucho dinero&quot;/&quot;I=
 will marry some women that have a lot of money&quot;.=C2=A0</div><blockquo=
te class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc so=
lid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><p>I don&#39;t actually expect a nat=
ural language to have a clear policy. But I think it&#39;s fair to ask wher=
e lojban comes down on such things. To the point, what would the standard o=
f specific reference be for this statement?</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><p><i>{mi b=
a speni le ricfu ninmu}</i></p></blockquote>
<p>Is the answer different if we add an inner quantifier that describes a l=
arge and/or vague quantity?</p>
<blockquote style=3D"margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><p><i>{mi b=
a speni le so&#39;i ricfu ninmu}</i></p></blockquote>
<p>How does one refer specifically to an imprecise number of individuals? <=
/p></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>There&#39;s experimental &quot;xo=
&#39;e&quot;.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" s=
tyle=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div=
 dir=3D"ltr"><p>Does this touch upon the &quot;levels of specificity&quot; =
you suggested? Can {le} as presently defined (&quot;refers specifically to =
an individual or individuals that the speaker has in mind&quot;) tolerate c=
ontinuous, or even graded, levels of specificity? Is there any supposed lim=
it to the number of individuals that can be held in mind at once? And can {=
le} only be used with countables?</p></div></blockquote><div>Good questions=
, but I don&#39;t know...</div><div><br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes=
</div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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