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Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 09:43:02 +0400
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Ease of learning for different native languages
From: Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com>
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2014-09-28 8:33 GMT+04:00 Alexander Kozhevnikov <alexkoz@gmail.com>:

> On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Luke Bergen wrote:
>
>> Do we have any native German (or other languages) speakers present? How
>> easy/hard was learning Lojban for you.
>>
>
> Native Russian speaker here. But here's the thing:
>
> I have not yet learned Lojban, I am just starting to seriously delve into
> it after years of hovering over it thinking how nice it would be to learn
> it.
>
> ji'a Russian was my first/native language, but I've lived in America since
> I was 7.5 or so, so I am vastly more proficient in English (but my English
> proficiency has consistently been considered better than my peers since
> around 5th/6th grade and my Russian proficiency, I'm also told, is better
> than that of other natively-Russian kids with similar histories of
> development. I attribute this to my parents being good at
> nurturing/maintaining my mental development, but enough rambling). Point
> is, my perspective is not representative of a native Russian speaker. I
> think my perspective is more accurately seen as that of a
> natively-bilingual Russian-English speaker.
>
> Since I am only starting learning lojban, so I cannot yet answer this
> portion of your question properly. First and foremost thought is that the
> early-bilingual experience makes understanding meanings/nuances easier,
> because meaning/thought and language is decoupled earlier and more
> intuitively/deeply in your mind when your language development is like
> that. But I'll do my best to remember to provide a follow-up once I
> actually feel I've learned lojban to a minimally usable extent, and then
> again once I feel I am truly fluent in it.
>
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Luke Bergen wrote:
>
>> Any thoughts or impressions on how non-english languages aid/hinder
>> learning lojban vis-a-vis it's lack of ambiguity?
>>
>
> Again, from the fluently-bilingual-since-childhood perspective, I think
> specifically that bilingualness makes learning any language easier (see
> prior paragraph), but lojban especially because lojban seems, from my naive
> understanding of it, to be better able to efficiently convey nuance and
> disambiguate/distinguish concepts, in large part "vis-a-vis it's lack of
> ambiguitiy". Because I learned a second language as a kid, I think that I
> am pretty good at figuring out meanings from context - being able to convey
> the distinctions that one language can make that another language cannot,
> however, is in my experience often problematic. I think (again somewhat
> naively) that lojban will prove for me to be a major boon in that
> department, but sadly I think that the biggest benefit it can have there is
> with someone else who knows lojban. E.g. I can think of several instances
> where I felt/thought wistfully: "if only I and this other person could both
> fluently speak lojban, then I could explain to them the meaning of this
> phrase from the other language much easier." (I think I have enough "meta"
> knowledge about lojban to confidently think it can do that even while not
> knowing enough of lojban to know how exactly it would.)
>
> On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:
>
>> E.g. I can see the need in explaining {co'i} earlier for Russian speakers
>> than for English speakers so that the first ones find more familiar
>> features sooner. The same for free word order which in some ways is more
>> limited in English and thus not that relevant. May be a few more features
>> but these two are most noticeable.
>>
>
> Maybe this is just because I am prone to thinking that more mental
> difficulty is better, or some other wierd aspect of my cognition, but I am
> inclined to think that for the most part, teaching people the familiar
> stuff first will just make them complacently willing to remain
> ignorant/deficient in the unfamiliar, and will have an adverse effect in
> the long term for people picking up the whole language.
>

It again depends on the textbook in question.
Sometimes it's easier to make people be able to construct sentences
immediately.
However, in the case of Russian those two issues ({co'i} and free word
order) are not that necessary since most simple sentences in Russian have
the expected word order as in Lojban by default or as in English. As of
{co'i} tenses and event contours are optional in Lojban and one can live
without them for while speaking a simple style Lojban.

So Russian is not a good example since the differences from English are
minimal.


> Regards,
> mi'e .aleksandr.kojevnikov. mu'o
>
>
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<div dir=3D"ltr"><br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te">2014-09-28 8:33 GMT+04:00 Alexander Kozhevnikov <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:alexkoz@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">alexkoz@gmail.com</a>=
&gt;</span>:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8e=
x;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">On Mon, 22 =
Sep 2014, Luke Bergen wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Do we have any native German (or other languages) speakers present? How eas=
y/hard was learning Lojban for you.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Native Russian speaker here. But here&#39;s the thing:<br>
<br>
I have not yet learned Lojban, I am just starting to seriously delve into i=
t after years of hovering over it thinking how nice it would be to learn it=
.<br>
<br>
ji&#39;a Russian was my first/native language, but I&#39;ve lived in Americ=
a since I was 7.5 or so, so I am vastly more proficient in English (but my =
English proficiency has consistently been considered better than my peers s=
ince around 5th/6th grade and my Russian proficiency, I&#39;m also told, is=
 better than that of other natively-Russian kids with similar histories of =
development. I attribute this to my parents being good at nurturing/maintai=
ning my mental development, but enough rambling). Point is, my perspective =
is not representative of a native Russian speaker. I think my perspective i=
s more accurately seen as that of a natively-bilingual Russian-English spea=
ker.<br>
<br>
Since I am only starting learning lojban, so I cannot yet answer this porti=
on of your question properly. First and foremost thought is that the early-=
bilingual experience makes understanding meanings/nuances easier, because m=
eaning/thought and language is decoupled earlier and more intuitively/deepl=
y in your mind when your language development is like that. But I&#39;ll do=
 my best to remember to provide a follow-up once I actually feel I&#39;ve l=
earned lojban to a minimally usable extent, and then again once I feel I am=
 truly fluent in it.<span class=3D""><br>
<br>
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Luke Bergen wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Any thoughts or impressions on how non-english languages aid/hinder<br>
learning lojban vis-a-vis it&#39;s lack of ambiguity?<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Again, from the fluently-bilingual-since-<u></u>childhood perspective, I th=
ink specifically that bilingualness makes learning any language easier (see=
 prior paragraph), but lojban especially because lojban seems, from my naiv=
e understanding of it, to be better able to efficiently convey nuance and d=
isambiguate/distinguish concepts, in large part &quot;vis-a-vis it&#39;s la=
ck of ambiguitiy&quot;. Because I learned a second language as a kid, I thi=
nk that I am pretty good at figuring out meanings from context - being able=
 to convey the distinctions that one language can make that another languag=
e cannot, however, is in my experience often problematic. I think (again so=
mewhat naively) that lojban will prove for me to be a major boon in that de=
partment, but sadly I think that the biggest benefit it can have there is w=
ith someone else who knows lojban. E.g. I can think of several instances wh=
ere I felt/thought wistfully: &quot;if only I and this other person could b=
oth fluently speak lojban, then I could explain to them the meaning of this=
 phrase from the other language much easier.&quot; (I think I have enough &=
quot;meta&quot; knowledge about lojban to confidently think it can do that =
even while not knowing enough of lojban to know how exactly it would.)<span=
 class=3D""><br>
<br>
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Gleki Arxokuna wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
E.g. I can see the need in explaining {co&#39;i} earlier for Russian speake=
rs than for English speakers so that the first ones find more familiar feat=
ures sooner. The same for free word order which in some ways is more limite=
d in English and thus not that relevant. May be a few more features but the=
se two are most noticeable.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></span>
Maybe this is just because I am prone to thinking that more mental difficul=
ty is better, or some other wierd aspect of my cognition, but I am inclined=
 to think that for the most part, teaching people the familiar stuff first =
will just make them complacently willing to remain ignorant/deficient in th=
e unfamiliar, and will have an adverse effect in the long term for people p=
icking up the whole language.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>It again =
depends on the textbook in question.</div><div>Sometimes it&#39;s easier to=
 make people be able to construct sentences immediately.</div><div>However,=
 in the case of Russian those two issues ({co&#39;i} and free word order) a=
re not that necessary since most simple sentences in Russian have the expec=
ted word order as in Lojban by default or as in English. As of {co&#39;i} t=
enses and event contours are optional in Lojban and one can live without th=
em for while speaking a simple style Lojban.</div><div><br></div><div>So Ru=
ssian is not a good example since the differences from English are minimal.=
</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 =
0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
Regards,<br>
mi&#39;e .aleksandr.kojevnikov. mu&#39;o<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D=
"h5"><br>
<br>
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
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_blank">lojban+unsubscribe@<u></u>googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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t=3D"_blank">http://groups.google.com/<u></u>group/lojban</a>.<br>
For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout" targ=
et=3D"_blank">https://groups.google.com/d/<u></u>optout</a>.<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div>

<p></p>

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