Received: from mail-pa0-f56.google.com ([209.85.220.56]:65487) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XY9O5-0000Ld-RO for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:59:26 -0700 Received: by mail-pa0-f56.google.com with SMTP id lj1sf126972pab.11 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:59:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZOgV/woi9DMPJI7d17+wAVYYT+lXkRK8Z+URg/xCZhk=; b=SpO7m3dIyicRcm04+bQ3GMuTqgrzK60iBBepBQLw8XRD4GSiFIZWQYkvJylV7Me9C0 HVyCBp6741g++52WdJFS6CEEuxAO2CBhHFAsy/Yt7RMOVlU/V8/zxd5jv4nlcPb1QEwa zykclGhFT8j9FOwqOhVH4zet8llwFGnFuo7cvC7JVDalRSAoL3XkOfGOcOo9pjqLvYB8 GXmJ41r9O9YJTblm1LDZrpN5L4YO9+fy+9CkmXDmZJ+lKq53vTO8aFRgyDufiGD7BP+u tEEFZnuVuF1VftytUL6XZf8v/e3UYrudhxvLLzF3oT9ywTOEy8Bm9EPTm7t3F4nzolLs DJJQ== X-Received: by 10.182.4.1 with SMTP id g1mr473236obg.3.1411891155371; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:59:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.182.45.163 with SMTP id o3ls1139945obm.34.gmail; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:59:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.182.28.10 with SMTP id x10mr28785048obg.13.1411891154954; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qa0-x233.google.com (mail-qa0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:400d:c00::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dh5si824455qcb.1.2014.09.28.00.59.14 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:59:14 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400d:c00::233; Received: by mail-qa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id j7so7254825qaq.38 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:59:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.140.31.75 with SMTP id e69mr42607574qge.2.1411891154831; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:59:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.220.199 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 00:58:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: MorphemeAddict Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 03:58:44 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Ease of learning for different native languages To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lytlesw@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lytlesw@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400d:c00::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lytlesw@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113a96cabed04605041b86f3 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a113a96cabed04605041b86f3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Re #2: Russian normally devoices final consonants (not just 'v') of words and before unvoiced consonants at morpheme boundaries, but since such consonants only occur finally in Lojban cmevla, I think it's a very minor problem. The Russian devoicing doesn't affect l, r, m, n, but this shouldn't affect perception of Lojban either. stevo On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Alexander Kozhevnikov wrote: > I got some more thoughts thanks to my just written out reply to the > lojbanized-name-in-unix/linux thread: > > Russian, I think, warps the mind a little with regards to pronounciation > (I suspect many natlangs do), in ways that are relevant: > > 1. Typical Russian speech turns the A and O sounds into the shwah > (spelling?) sound when the syllables it's in are not stressed. I think th= is > warps our notions of what those two letters/phonemes sound like when > unstressed. > > 2. We similarly say our equivalent to lobjan's "v" as lojban's "f" when > it's at the end of a word. > > 3. I remember being taught that each word has exactly one stressed > syllable. I think this notion had the most warping impact on me personall= y, > though I can't say if that's only because of me having incidentally learn= ed > and thought about that one at the right moment in my formative stages. > > 4. In Russian we have this notion that the letter combinations equivalent > to lojban's "ji" and "ci" are actually pronounced not with what lojban's > "i" maps to, but with this other vowel we have, (at least I'm pretty sure > it's a vowel), represented by the letter '=D1=8B'. I am not feeling up to > digging up the IPA symbols for it and verifying for certain if it's one o= f > the acceptable ones for lojban's "i", but I'm fairly confident it isn't. = I > still have to frequently catch myself when reading these combinations in > lojban. > > I think lojban teaching material for Russians will need to account for al= l > of the above points early on, and by "account for" I mean explicitly brin= g > the reader's attention to, and then dismiss as not being unversal speech > "realities" (I think monolinguals with little to no foreign language > experience in particular are very good at deluding themselves into thinki= ng > that the way their language implicitly substitutes certain letters/symbol= s > with non-correspondant phonemes is natural and possibly even inate to all > human speech), and instruct the reader that it is definitely not correct = in > lojban. > > > mi'e .aleksandr.kojevnikov. mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a113a96cabed04605041b86f3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Re #2: Russian normally devoices final consonants = (not just 'v') of words and before unvoiced consonants at morpheme = boundaries, but since=C2=A0such=C2=A0consonants only occur finally in Lojba= n cmevla, I think it's a very minor problem.=C2=A0

The Russian devoicing doesn't affect l, r, m, n, but this sh= ouldn't affect perception of Lojban either.=C2=A0

stevo

On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 3:04 AM, Alexander Kozhevnikov <alexkoz= @gmail.com> wrote:
I got so= me more thoughts thanks to my just written out reply to the lojbanized-name= -in-unix/linux thread:

Russian, I think, warps the mind a little with regards to pronounciation (I= suspect many natlangs do), in ways that are relevant:

1. Typical Russian speech turns the A and O sounds into the shwah (spelling= ?) sound when the syllables it's in are not stressed. I think this warp= s our notions of what those two letters/phonemes sound like when unstressed= .

2. We similarly say our equivalent to lobjan's "v" as lojban&= #39;s "f" when it's at the end of a word.

3. I remember being taught that each word has exactly one stressed syllable= . I think this notion had the most warping impact on me personally, though = I can't say if that's only because of me having incidentally learne= d and thought about that one at the right moment in my formative stages.
4. In Russian we have this notion that the letter combinations equivalent t= o lojban's "ji" and "ci" are actually pronounced no= t with what lojban's "i" maps to, but with this other vowel w= e have, (at least I'm pretty sure it's a vowel), represented by the= letter '=D1=8B'. I am not feeling up to digging up the IPA symbols= for it and verifying for certain if it's one of the acceptable ones fo= r lojban's "i", but I'm fairly confident it isn't. I = still have to frequently catch myself when reading these combinations in lo= jban.

I think lojban teaching material for Russians will need to account for all = of the above points early on, and by "account for" I mean explici= tly bring the reader's attention to, and then dismiss as not being unve= rsal speech "realities" (I think monolinguals with little to no f= oreign language experience in particular are very good at deluding themselv= es into thinking that the way their language implicitly substitutes certain= letters/symbols with non-correspondant phonemes is natural and possibly ev= en inate to all human speech), and instruct the reader that it is definitel= y not correct in lojban.


mi'e .aleksandr.kojevnikov. mu'o

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