Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 11:17:19 -0700 (PDT)
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Speaker specificity: {.i da'i na vajni}
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On Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:02:52 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:
>
> any better?
> http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=poi%27i
>
>
Not really. First off, there's nothing like a definition of a term that 
uses the term to define itself ;-)

*    poi'i: x1 is such that poi'i abstraction is true; x1 binds ke'a within 
the abstraction.*

So please help me understand. It is a NU so what kind of abstraction is it? 
It's not an event, or a property, or a truth-value, etc. What kind? As far 
as I can tell it is not an abstraction at all, but a clause like {poi}, or 
in some examples {noi}, or perhaps a generic {su'u}. The term prenex is 
being used a lot here too, and I get the feeling the answer I might get is 
that it is a "prenex abstractor". But what does that mean? A way to talk 
about prenexes? e.g. "the prenex, all dogs, is ..." but that's not how the 
examples are, so that's not it. I don't get it. 

Let's take one of the examples:

    mi poi'i ke'a viska ke'a - I see myself.

That doesn't look like an abstraction, it looks like a relative clause. And 
in this case an incidental one. So how is that different from:

    mi noi ke'a viska ke'a - I, who (incidentally) I see.

Take another example:

    le poi'i ke'a viska ke'a - the ones who see themselves

So that at least looks like an abstraction. But why can't we just say,

    le poi ke'a viska ke'a


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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:02:52 AM UTC-4, la gleki =
wrote:<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin: 0;margin-left: 0.8=
ex;border-left: 1px #ccc solid;padding-left: 1ex;"><div dir=3D"ltr">any bet=
ter?<div><a href=3D"http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dpoi%27i" target=
=3D"_blank" onmousedown=3D"this.href=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%=
3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org%2Findex.php%3Ftitle%3Dpoi%2527i\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\=
46usg\75AFQjCNGGaB0kVRUUreXSMOj-iW2eWMpinQ';return true;" onclick=3D"this.h=
ref=3D'http://www.google.com/url?q\75http%3A%2F%2Fmw.lojban.org%2Findex.php=
%3Ftitle%3Dpoi%2527i\46sa\75D\46sntz\0751\46usg\75AFQjCNGGaB0kVRUUreXSMOj-i=
W2eWMpinQ';return true;">http://mw.lojban.org/index.<wbr>php?title=3Dpoi%27=
i</a><br></div></div><div><br></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Not re=
ally. First off, there's nothing like a definition of a term that uses the =
term to define itself ;-)</div><div><br></div><div><i style=3D"color: rgb(0=
, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px; text-=
align: justify;">&nbsp; &nbsp; poi'i: x1 is such that poi'i abstraction is =
true; x1 binds ke'a within the abstraction.</i></div><div><i style=3D"color=
: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 14px; line-height: 21px=
; text-align: justify;"><br></i></div>So please help me understand. It is a=
 NU so what kind of abstraction is it? It's not an event, or a property, or=
 a truth-value, etc. What kind? As far as I can tell it is not an abstracti=
on at all, but a clause like {poi}, or in some examples {noi}, or perhaps a=
 generic {su'u}. The term prenex is being used a lot here too, and I get th=
e feeling the answer I might get is that it is a "prenex abstractor". But w=
hat does that mean? A way to talk about prenexes? e.g. "the prenex, all dog=
s, is ..." but that's not how the examples are, so that's not it. I don't g=
et it.&nbsp;<div><br></div><div>Let's take one of the examples:<br><div><br=
></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; mi poi'i ke'a viska ke'a - I see myself.</div><di=
v><br></div></div><div>That doesn't look like an abstraction, it looks like=
 a relative clause. And in this case an incidental one. So how is that diff=
erent from:</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; mi noi ke'a viska ke'a -=
 I, who (incidentally) I see.<br></div><div><br></div><div>Take another exa=
mple:</div><div><br></div><div>&nbsp; &nbsp; le poi'i ke'a viska ke'a - the=
 ones who see themselves</div><div><br></div><div>So that at least looks li=
ke an abstraction. But why can't we just say,</div><div><br></div><div>&nbs=
p; &nbsp; le poi ke'a viska ke'a<br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div></d=
iv>

<p></p>

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