Received-SPF: none (google.com: phma@bezitopo.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) client-ip=107.14.166.230;
From: Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Question about Lojbanized Name in Unix/Linux
Date: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 21:34:31 -0400
Message-ID: <1703532.rDoX2n4cJP@caracal>
User-Agent: KMail/4.13.3 (Linux/3.13.0-36-generic; KDE/4.13.3; x86_64; ; )
In-Reply-To: <alpine.LN8.2.00.1409271359450.3313@jEEED>
References: <alpine.LN8.2.00.1409201747340.22199@jEEED> <CAO7tK2e64Rd0KC31fQLP8iW6o64i8Mv=EVSjHOWpM21bd9ARtA@mail.gmail.com> <alpine.LN8.2.00.1409271359450.3313@jEEED>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

On Sunday, September 28, 2014 02:41:39 Alexander Kozhevnikov wrote:
> More and more these discussions reveal to me that my understanding of wha=
t
> a "stress" on a syllable means is flawed/limited - it was based on what m=
y
> parents/school taught me with regard to Russian (in America on the other
> hand I've virtually never had syllable stress/emphasis come up in
> discussion of how to pronounce things: closest thing that comes to mind
> is a quote from some sitcom where one character says "you're putting
> the emphAsis on the wrong syllAble", and to clarify, besides
> stress/emphasis, they also made those 'A's like lojban's 'a' sound, not
> like their typical pronunciation, which in my mind is more like a lojban
> 'y' typically.)

Those stressed A's should actually be pronounced as /=C3=A6/.

> So to give some context: My understanding, and I very very tentatively
> want to say most Russians' understanding, is that there is no real
> distinction between emphasis and stress on a syllable (I think this is
> still correct?), but also that there is and can ever be only one syllable
> per word that is stressed (this latter part I was taught early enough tha=
t
> somehow, despite it not being logically sound now that I think about it,
> I can't for the life of me recall rejecting it ever since). Because of
> this, I have ONLY my Russian childhood based understanding of syllable
> stress to guide me.

There are a few words with two stresses in Russian, like "=D1=87=D0=B5=D1=
=82=D1=8B=D1=80=D1=91=D1=85=D1=81=D0=BE=D1=82=D1=8B=D0=B9". There=20
are also some Spanish words with two stresses, such as "acu=C3=A1ticamente"=
 (the=20
first e in "-mente" is also stressed). In English, sufficiently long words =
have=20
some syllables with secondary stress.

> Okay, so worse still, as you bring up, in Russian the 'a' and 'o' vowels
> are collapsed (is that a/the technical term for this?) into what sounds
> like the lojban 'y' when not stressed. So my understanding of what it eve=
n
> means to stress a syllable was at least partly conflated with actually
> changing the phoneme until recently as well.

It's actually called "vowel reduction". English does this, but the rules ar=
e=20
different than in Russian: 'o' can sound like /a/ in stressed syllables.=20
Spanish does not (though there's a dialect in which vowels are changed in t=
he=20
presence of a swallowed 's'), nor does Finnish.

> Yes, I think some or even most of us don't actually realize either of
> these phoneme transformations happen. We also effectively claim "=D0=B6=
=D0=B8" is
> really pronounced "=D0=B6=D1=8B", ditto for "=D1=88=D0=B8"->"=D1=88=D1=8B=
" (sidenote, this is so
> ingrained I had to retrain myself for the lojban "ji" and "ci"
> combinations to pronounce them with an actual "i" sound), but those are
> really heavily asserted in early teaching, so I ended up picking it up
> consciously. I only noticed the =D0=B2->=D1=84 thing when I was already i=
n America
> and working to maintain/further my Russian: I kept writing things ending
> with =D1=84 because that's what they sounded like, then getting corrected=
 that
> it's actually =D0=B2. I wonder if Russians who spent more time immersed i=
n just
> Russian end up not noting the latter, or perhaps even not noticing the
> former. But to answer your question, I know a phonetically-faithful
> reproduction is "kojevnikyv", but see Gleki's reply to your statement and
> my additional reply after it:

There are Turkic languages, like Kazakh, that have both "=D0=B6=D0=B8" and =
"=D0=B6=D1=8B" and=20
pronounce them differently.

Pierre
--=20
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.