Received: from mail-lb0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]:57844) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XYTvT-0000NJ-D5 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:17 -0700 Received: by mail-lb0-f192.google.com with SMTP id f15sf235102lbj.29 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2pvUE3aQ477HccvMs5ibDXdmMGyx4r0aD2HOseUmcNM=; b=NVtyTynal+TjSSoWJam0xQUEWds757qBtJX0mQKR0DeVRcIiM8ciFOqJjXgEYLoFHn lI50AslS8/f6pRo6E6APq00oOwgOgAo7Ghi+tGHvvJd+rIEftJ1JD8L+2HM9WesZXDo1 BnsaI0Fj0YdU2GF+7g5DRVMKVYcVZvtrRX3evhKAjmuI/Zvu2VhH6+pvle3lBI3MzseS gl0Kr2VQw6ZKuPDTId3/SfYcQU6CuorxLWkISo/94AVAvD7LBBG091PgdhDGg/vbpZ6h 5iCPkY4cvT+q30+udhtXQSXK9WhDJ8pvbmb3mCPZ74YG0MpgWAgZc0yB+20Vymgash9J NfOw== X-Received: by 10.152.4.165 with SMTP id l5mr1276lal.17.1411970104092; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.26.73 with SMTP id j9ls610672lag.29.gmail; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.19.131 with SMTP id f3mr5418025lae.0.1411970102495; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x244.google.com (mail-lb0-x244.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c04::244]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id us10si691341lbc.1.2014.09.28.22.55.02 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::244 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::244; Received: by mail-lb0-f196.google.com with SMTP id l4so5518629lbv.11 for ; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.130.41 with SMTP id ob9mr34453707lbb.12.1411970102388; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.4.163 with HTTP; Sun, 28 Sep 2014 22:55:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1703532.rDoX2n4cJP@caracal> References: <1703532.rDoX2n4cJP@caracal> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 09:55:02 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Question about Lojbanized Name in Unix/Linux From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::244 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7b342ba662ec5305042de84b X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7b342ba662ec5305042de84b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-09-29 5:34 GMT+04:00 Pierre Abbat : > On Sunday, September 28, 2014 02:41:39 Alexander Kozhevnikov wrote: > > More and more these discussions reveal to me that my understanding of > what > > a "stress" on a syllable means is flawed/limited - it was based on what > my > > parents/school taught me with regard to Russian (in America on the othe= r > > hand I've virtually never had syllable stress/emphasis come up in > > discussion of how to pronounce things: closest thing that comes to mind > > is a quote from some sitcom where one character says "you're putting > > the emphAsis on the wrong syllAble", and to clarify, besides > > stress/emphasis, they also made those 'A's like lojban's 'a' sound, not > > like their typical pronunciation, which in my mind is more like a lojba= n > > 'y' typically.) > > Those stressed A's should actually be pronounced as /=C3=A6/. > > > So to give some context: My understanding, and I very very tentatively > > want to say most Russians' understanding, is that there is no real > > distinction between emphasis and stress on a syllable (I think this is > > still correct?), but also that there is and can ever be only one syllab= le > > per word that is stressed (this latter part I was taught early enough > that > > somehow, despite it not being logically sound now that I think about it= , > > I can't for the life of me recall rejecting it ever since). Because of > > this, I have ONLY my Russian childhood based understanding of syllable > > stress to guide me. > > There are a few words with two stresses in Russian, like "=D1=87=D0=B5=D1= =82=D1=8B=D1=80=D1=91=D1=85=D1=81=D0=BE=D1=82=D1=8B=D0=B9". > There > are also some Spanish words with two stresses, such as "acu=C3=A1ticament= e" (the > first e in "-mente" is also stressed). In English, sufficiently long word= s > have > some syllables with secondary stress. > > > Okay, so worse still, as you bring up, in Russian the 'a' and 'o' vowel= s > > are collapsed (is that a/the technical term for this?) into what sounds > > like the lojban 'y' when not stressed. So my understanding of what it > even > > means to stress a syllable was at least partly conflated with actually > > changing the phoneme until recently as well. > > It's actually called "vowel reduction". English does this, but the rules > are > different than in Russian: 'o' can sound like /a/ in stressed syllables. > Spanish does not (though there's a dialect in which vowels are changed in > the > presence of a swallowed 's'), nor does Finnish. > > > Yes, I think some or even most of us don't actually realize either of > > these phoneme transformations happen. We also effectively claim "=D0=B6= =D0=B8" is > > really pronounced "=D0=B6=D1=8B", ditto for "=D1=88=D0=B8"->"=D1=88=D1= =8B" (sidenote, this is so > > ingrained I had to retrain myself for the lojban "ji" and "ci" > > combinations to pronounce them with an actual "i" sound), but those are > > really heavily asserted in early teaching, so I ended up picking it up > > consciously. I only noticed the =D0=B2->=D1=84 thing when I was already= in America > > and working to maintain/further my Russian: I kept writing things endin= g > > with =D1=84 because that's what they sounded like, then getting correct= ed that > > it's actually =D0=B2. I wonder if Russians who spent more time immersed= in > just > > Russian end up not noting the latter, or perhaps even not noticing the > > former. But to answer your question, I know a phonetically-faithful > > reproduction is "kojevnikyv", but see Gleki's reply to your statement a= nd > > my additional reply after it: > > There are Turkic languages, like Kazakh, that have both "=D0=B6=D0=B8" an= d "=D0=B6=D1=8B" and > pronounce them differently. > =D0=B6=D0=B8 is exactly how i pronounce {ji} in Lojban. =D0=B6=D1=8B (unstressed) is exactly how i pronounce {jy} in Lojban. > > Pierre > -- > li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du > li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7b342ba662ec5305042de84b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-09-29 5:34 GMT+04:00 Pierre Abbat <phma@bezitopo.org>:
On Sunday, September 28, 2014 02:4= 1:39 Alexander Kozhevnikov wrote:
> More and more these discussions reveal to me that my understanding of = what
> a "stress" on a syllable means is flawed/limited - it was ba= sed on what my
> parents/school taught me with regard to Russian (in America on the oth= er
> hand I've virtually never had syllable stress/emphasis come up in<= br> > discussion of how to pronounce things: closest thing that comes to min= d
> is a quote from some sitcom where one character says "you're = putting
> the emphAsis on the wrong syllAble", and to clarify, besides
> stress/emphasis, they also made those 'A's like lojban's &= #39;a' sound, not
> like their typical pronunciation, which in my mind is more like a lojb= an
> 'y' typically.)

Those stressed A's should actually be pronounced as /=C3=A6/.
> So to give some context: My understanding, and I very very tentatively=
> want to say most Russians' understanding, is that there is no real=
> distinction between emphasis and stress on a syllable (I think this is=
> still correct?), but also that there is and can ever be only one sylla= ble
> per word that is stressed (this latter part I was taught early enough = that
> somehow, despite it not being logically sound now that I think about i= t,
> I can't for the life of me recall rejecting it ever since). Becaus= e of
> this, I have ONLY my Russian childhood based understanding of syllable=
> stress to guide me.

There are a few words with two stresses in Russian, like "=D1= =87=D0=B5=D1=82=D1=8B=D1=80=D1=91=D1=85=D1=81=D0=BE=D1=82=D1=8B=D0=B9"= . There
are also some Spanish words with two stresses, such as "acu=C3=A1ticam= ente" (the
first e in "-mente" is also stressed). In English, sufficiently l= ong words have
some syllables with secondary stress.

> Okay, so worse still, as you bring up, in Russian the 'a' and = 'o' vowels
> are collapsed (is that a/the technical term for this?) into what sound= s
> like the lojban 'y' when not stressed. So my understanding of = what it even
> means to stress a syllable was at least partly conflated with actually=
> changing the phoneme until recently as well.

It's actually called "vowel reduction". English does t= his, but the rules are
different than in Russian: 'o' can sound like /a/ in stressed sylla= bles.
Spanish does not (though there's a dialect in which vowels are changed = in the
presence of a swallowed 's'), nor does Finnish.

> Yes, I think some or even most of us don't actually realize either= of
> these phoneme transformations happen. We also effectively claim "= =D0=B6=D0=B8" is
> really pronounced "=D0=B6=D1=8B", ditto for "=D1=88=D0= =B8"->"=D1=88=D1=8B" (sidenote, this is so
> ingrained I had to retrain myself for the lojban "ji" and &q= uot;ci"
> combinations to pronounce them with an actual "i" sound), bu= t those are
> really heavily asserted in early teaching, so I ended up picking it up=
> consciously. I only noticed the =D0=B2->=D1=84 thing when I was alr= eady in America
> and working to maintain/further my Russian: I kept writing things endi= ng
> with =D1=84 because that's what they sounded like, then getting co= rrected that
> it's actually =D0=B2. I wonder if Russians who spent more time imm= ersed in just
> Russian end up not noting the latter, or perhaps even not noticing the=
> former. But to answer your question, I know a phonetically-faithful > reproduction is "kojevnikyv", but see Gleki's reply to y= our statement and
> my additional reply after it:

There are Turkic languages, like Kazakh, that have both "=D0=B6= =D0=B8" and "=D0=B6=D1=8B" and
pronounce them differently.
=D0=B6=D0=B8 is exactly ho= w i pronounce {ji} in Lojban.
=D0=B6=D1=8B (unstressed) is exactl= y how i pronounce {jy} in Lojban.

Pierre
--
li ze te'a ci vu'u ci bi'e te'a mu du
li ci su'i ze te'a mu bi'e vu'u ci

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
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