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Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 09:45:00 +0100
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: New soi's scope
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
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On 29 Sep 2014 04:17, "la durka" <durka42@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The reason for making it that way (the term "scope leaper" has been used)
was precisely to provide a way to escape the normal left-to-right scoping
rule, to make certain things easier to express without rearranging the
entire sentence structure. A similar proposed bridi modifier (xoi as
currently defined in jbovlaste) is right-scoping like tags.
>
> la selpa'i has some discussion in the second half of this post.

Ah, I see. Surely the basic form should be xoi, in selmaho XOI. If
scope-leaping is desired -- and it should be admissible only if the
scope-leaping rules are robustly defined, which is a tall order -- then
surely it should provide variants of all scope-sensitive constituents,
without arbitrarily privileging bridi relatives.

(Whether xoi must be in XOI rather than SEI is unclear, partly because the
right criteria for selmahofellowhood are unclear (if selmaho means actual
grammatical word-class rather than the sense it has in Lojban's current
pseudogrammar).)

--And.

>
> mu'o mi'e la durka
>
> El domingo, 28 de septiembre de 2014 20:37:55 UTC-4, And Rosta escribi=C3=
=B3:
>>
>> I've just noticed that new soi "always takes top scope". Why is that?
Not knowing the discussion that led to that choice, I incline to the view
that in a reformed Lojban there would be a new syntax that syntacticizes
the left-to-right scope rule (so that clause structure is binary branching,
as in Xorban), in which case you'd expect soi to scope over what it
precedes. Most if not all tags (e.g. tense) could be seen as abbreviations
of soi phrases, and hence you'd expect soi phrases to have the scopal
properties of tags.
>>
>> --And.
>
> --
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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On 29 Sep 2014 04:17, &quot;la durka&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:durka42@gm=
ail.com">durka42@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; The reason for making it that way (the term &quot;scope leaper&quot; h=
as been used) was precisely to provide a way to escape the normal left-to-r=
ight scoping rule, to make certain things easier to express without rearran=
ging the entire sentence structure. A similar proposed bridi modifier (xoi =
as currently defined in jbovlaste) is right-scoping like tags.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; la selpa&#39;i has some discussion in the second half of this post.</p=
>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Ah, I see. Surely the basic form should be xoi, in selmaho X=
OI. If scope-leaping is desired -- and it should be admissible only if the =
scope-leaping rules are robustly defined, which is a tall order -- then sur=
ely it should provide variants of all scope-sensitive constituents, without=
 arbitrarily privileging bridi relatives.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">(Whether xoi must be in XOI rather than SEI is unclear, part=
ly because the right criteria for selmahofellowhood are unclear (if selmaho=
 means actual grammatical word-class rather than the sense it has in Lojban=
&#39;s current pseudogrammar).)</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">--And.<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt;<br>
&gt; mu&#39;o mi&#39;e la durka<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; El domingo, 28 de septiembre de 2014 20:37:55 UTC-4, And Rosta escribi=
=C3=B3:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; I&#39;ve just noticed that new soi &quot;always takes top scope&qu=
ot;. Why is that? Not knowing the discussion that led to that choice, I inc=
line to the view that in a reformed Lojban there would be a new syntax that=
 syntacticizes the left-to-right scope rule (so that clause structure is bi=
nary branching, as in Xorban), in which case you&#39;d expect soi to scope =
over what it precedes. Most if not all tags (e.g. tense) could be seen as a=
bbreviations of soi phrases, and hence you&#39;d expect soi phrases to have=
 the scopal properties of tags.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; --And.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; -- <br>
&gt; You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro=
ups &quot;lojban&quot; group.<br>
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 an email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com">lojba=
n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
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oups.com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
&gt; Visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/group/lojban">=
http://groups.google.com/group/lojban</a>.<br>
&gt; For more options, visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/d/optout"=
>https://groups.google.com/d/optout</a>.<br>
</p>

<p></p>

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