Received: from mail-yh0-f64.google.com ([209.85.213.64]:63882) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XYZuY-0002WG-D3 for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:42 -0700 Received: by mail-yh0-f64.google.com with SMTP id z6sf1987879yhz.29 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=2h+cNnW8lJ1pWMh14t1Ln1kSOipkbQt57cFLoUYGXbI=; b=p90UgJgYNVUcNqFTdsD63Lm5+m/554pR+pueApRxV+2GqUKQyYYiATvI4kv+/5dKy7 nRPJUs/rUFu3g8jIhvq66DlesMVVpoibI/YB6bf7a3keUv9OknYpb80cjwXiZ41WJSHS 6bFd3kIQUyJFSPyUsXrbAKAj3QrrmUIiCvLKs0Z0NG7qls69lkfV4MF4GrJErny8NgIk M6wmTL35XwXsJ0sDuHJgSk57Qi3HSYyFvH6/sM9Dh2S0xI68icyJ7HU9khPMEEUTPNiG yCCrzVO4V5x7v5gyzIYJvtYRc7U22kzCbrJUw9OioSivuXhlO6dioLNGHi25ST5vq8ZH VxxA== X-Received: by 10.50.30.38 with SMTP id p6mr745562igh.8.1411993111681; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.120.72 with SMTP id la8ls2129813igb.13.gmail; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.25.41 with SMTP id z9mr50750685igf.2.1411993111377; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pd0-x22c.google.com (mail-pd0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id pz1si893707pbb.0.2014.09.29.05.18.31 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c; Received: by mail-pd0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id p10so788622pdj.31 for ; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.70.38.109 with SMTP id f13mr46569886pdk.74.1411993111233; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.37.198 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.70.37.198 with HTTP; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 05:18:31 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <957408e7-c827-4460-bf97-4a85642f29c7@googlegroups.com> <47666b9a-5ea7-4f43-b5c4-b72399ba47bb@googlegroups.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 13:18:31 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: New soi's scope From: And Rosta To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:400e:c02::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=047d7bfe9546d20a78050433432d X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --047d7bfe9546d20a78050433432d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 29 Sep 2014 12:23, "TR NS" wrote: > > > > On Monday, September 29, 2014 5:39:54 AM UTC-4, And Rosta wrote: >> >> >> On 29 Sep 2014 09:59, "TR NS" wrote: >> > >> > On Monday, September 29, 2014 4:24:47 AM UTC-4, And Rosta wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> On 29 Sep 2014 04:45, "TR NS" wrote: >> >> > >> >> >> >> That is a different proposal than the one for using /voi/ for {poi'i}, which is the one you hadn't understood. >> > >> > >> > Wait, that's a different "new voi" proposal? And both proposed by la selpa'i? >> >> That's my impression. But the "as"-like voi is mooted just in a blog post, not in any list of formal proposals. > > > "impression"? So you don't even know for sure? Can't you tell be reading the proposal? I don't trust my judgement. There are aspects of Lojban I was never expert on, and in everything I am best rusty. I had largely tuned out for a dozen years; only recently has my interest been rekindled by a new wave of lojbanists, who know their shit. > >> >> >> >> >> It struck me as quite reasonable and understandable that you, newish to these topics, didn't understand that proposal, but not that you blamed the proposer for that. >> > >> > Am I reading that right? Instead of explaining, you are taking the time to rub my face in it? >> >> No, just to point out that the ethos and etiquette of the internet is that one takes it upon oneself to educate oneself as far as one can, and seeing that, others will be willing to give one a leg up to the areas one's independent understanding cannot reach. One cannot reasonably expect others to have prepackaged everything for one in easily digestible form. > > > Then you shouldn't reasonably expect anyone to learn the language either. I don't. I wouldn't recommend Lojban to anybody, unless they'd just get a kick out of learning it for the hell of it. Not everybody shares my view on that, but nobody expects new learners to follow and understand highly technical discussion. I don't believe the ethos and etiquette of the internet is to answer an earnest request for explanation with, that's for us to know and you to figure out. I also don't think it is much to ask that proposals be explained with at least a smidgen of plain language. As a programmer I know the importance of writing good comments. I'd sink like a rock if I explained to my coworkers, you "cannot reasonably expect me to have prepackaged everything for you in easily digestible form." As an academic I know that at a stage when you're thrashing ideas around exploratorily it would be exhausting and unreasonable to expect interlocutors to make that discussion intelligible to those who aren't already able to understand it. Once you get to the publication stage, you set yourselves much higher standards of perspicuity, but you're still entitled to assume a certain level of prior knowledge from your readers. Not every academic publication is a beginners' textbook. --And. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --047d7bfe9546d20a78050433432d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 29 Sep 2014 12:23, "TR NS" <transfire@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Monday, September 29, 2014 5:39:54 AM UTC-4, And Rosta wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 29 Sep 2014 09:59, "TR NS" <tran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > On Monday, September 29, 2014 4:24:47 AM UTC-4, And Rosta wro= te:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On 29 Sep 2014 04:45, "TR NS" <tran...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> That is a different proposal than the one for using /voi/= for {poi'i}, which is the one you hadn't understood.
>> >
>> >
>> > Wait, that's a different "new voi" proposal? An= d both proposed by la selpa'i?
>>
>> That's my impression. But the "as"-like voi is moote= d just in a blog post, not in any list of formal proposals.
>
>
> "impression"? So you don't even know for sure? Can't= you tell be reading the proposal?

I don't trust my judgement. There are aspects of Lojban = I was never expert on, and in everything I am best rusty. I had largely tun= ed out for a dozen years; only recently has my interest been rekindled by a= new wave of lojbanists, who know their shit.

> =C2=A0
>>
>> >>
>> >> It struck me as quite reasonable and understandable that = you, newish to these topics, didn't understand that proposal, but not t= hat you blamed the proposer for that.
>> >
>> > Am I reading that right? Instead of explaining, you are takin= g the time to rub my face in it?=C2=A0
>>
>> No, just to point out that the ethos and etiquette of the internet= is that one takes it upon oneself to educate oneself as far as one can, an= d seeing that, others will be willing to give one a leg up to the areas one= 's independent understanding cannot reach. One cannot reasonably expect= others to have prepackaged everything for one in easily digestible form. >
>
> Then you shouldn't reasonably expect anyone to learn the language = either.

I don't. I wouldn't recommend Lojban to anybody, unl= ess they'd just get a kick out of learning it for the hell of it. Not e= verybody shares my view on that, but nobody expects new learners to follow = and understand highly technical discussion.

I don't believe=C2=A0the ethos and etiquette=C2=A0of th= e internet=C2=A0is to=C2=A0answer an earnest request for explanation=C2=A0w= ith, that's for us to know and you to figure out. I also don't thin= k it is much to ask that proposals be explained with at least a smidgen of = plain language. As a programmer I know the importance of writing good comme= nts. I'd sink like a rock if I explained to my coworkers, you "can= not reasonably expect me to have prepackaged everything for you in easily d= igestible form."=C2=A0

As an academic I know that at a stage when you're thrash= ing ideas around exploratorily it would be exhausting and unreasonable to e= xpect interlocutors to make that discussion intelligible to those who aren&= #39;t already able to understand it. Once you get to the publication stage,= you set yourselves much higher standards of perspicuity, but you're st= ill entitled to assume a certain level of prior knowledge from your readers= . Not every academic publication is a beginners' textbook.

--And.

--
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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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--047d7bfe9546d20a78050433432d--