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[95.210.209.152]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id v9sm16094719wjy.14.2014.09.29.08.32.51 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 29 Sep 2014 08:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <54297B9D.8040906@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 17:32:45 +0200 From: Ilmen User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.1.2 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: [lojban] {poi'i} References: <5427DCE6.9020900@gmx.de> <0019ea31-f581-4531-930b-12bf30c421a9@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: <0019ea31-f581-4531-930b-12bf30c421a9@googlegroups.com> X-Original-Sender: ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::236 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=ilmen.pokebip@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------020302000707090702040103" X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------020302000707090702040103 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 28/09/2014 20:17, TR NS wrote: > On Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:02:52 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote: > > any better? > http://mw.lojban.org/index.php?title=3Dpoi%27i > > > > Not really. First off, there's nothing like a definition of a term=20 > that uses the term to define itself ;-) > > / poi'i: x1 is such that poi'i abstraction is true; x1 binds ke'a=20 > within the abstraction./ > / > / > So please help me understand. It is a NU so what kind of abstraction=20 > is it? It's not an event, or a property, or a truth-value, etc. What=20 > kind? As far as I can tell it is not an abstraction at all, but a=20 > clause like {poi}, or in some examples {noi}, or perhaps a generic=20 > {su'u}. The term prenex is being used a lot here too, and I get the=20 > feeling the answer I might get is that it is a "prenex abstractor".=20 > But what does that mean? A way to talk about prenexes? e.g. "the=20 > prenex, all dogs, is ..." but that's not how the examples are, so=20 > that's not it. I don't get it. > > Let's take one of the examples: > > mi poi'i ke'a viska ke'a - I see myself. > > That doesn't look like an abstraction, it looks like a relative=20 > clause. And in this case an incidental one. So how is that different from= : > > mi noi ke'a viska ke'a - I, who (incidentally) I see. > > Take another example: > > le poi'i ke'a viska ke'a - the ones who see themselves > > So that at least looks like an abstraction. But why can't we just say, > > le poi ke'a viska ke'a > {poi'i} is a NU abstractor, therefore a poi'i phrase has the form {poi'i=20 [bridi] (kei)}, and behaves as a selbri. Thus it has a syntax different=20 from that of {poi}. As for its meaning: =E2=80=A2 fo'a *poi'i* (ke'a) broda (kei) =3D =C2=AB fo'a *is such that* [= =20 it/him/he/they brodas ] =C2=BB =3D fo'a broda So it's a kind of syntactic sugar, it helps having more word order=20 freedom. The ke'a within the bridi enclosed by poi'i-kei binds to=20 (stands for) the x1 of the selbri created by poi'i-kei. {poi'i}=20 parallels the English construction "X is such that ... it ..." Here are a few examples coming from the new-voi page=20 : =E2=80=A2 =C2=AB la .pam. cu melbi gi'e _*poi'i*__so'i da nelci (ke'a) (kei= )_ =C2=BB =3D =C2=AB=20 la .pam. cu melbi gi'e se nelci so'i da =C2=BB > "/Pam is beautiful and _*is such that*__many like __her_./" =3D "/Pam=20 is beautiful and is liked by many./" ( here, {poi'i so'i da nelci ke'a (kei)}, underlined in the example, is=20 a predicate which means "x1 is such that many things like x1". ) =E2=80=A2 =C2=AB la. pit. cu stati gi'e _poi'i so'i da manci lo nu ke'a dan= su_ =C2=BB =3D =C2=AB=20 la. pit. cu stati .ije so'i da manci lo nu la .pit. cu dansu =C2=BB > "/Pete is talented and _(__*is such that*__) many are amazed by his=20 dancing_/" =E2=80=A2 =C2=AB mi kecti lo _*poi'i* ke'a jinvi lo du'u ke'a to'e melbi_ = =C2=BB > "/I feel sorry for the-thing(s)-which _*is/are-such-that*__it/they=20 think that it/they are the-opposite-of-beautiful_./" > "/I feel sorry for those who think that they aren't beautiful./" .a'o mi sidju mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --------------020302000707090702040103 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 28/09/2014 20:17, TR NS wrote:
On Sunday, September 28, 2014 11:02:52 AM UTC-4, la gleki wrote:


Not really. First off, there's nothing like a definition of a term that uses the term to define itself ;-)

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0 poi'i: x1 is such that poi'i abstraction is true; x1 bin= ds ke'a within the abstraction.

So please help me understand. It is a NU so what kind of abstraction is it? It's not an event, or a property, or a truth-value, etc. What kind? As far as I can tell it is not an abstraction at all, but a clause like {poi}, or in some examples {noi}, or perhaps a generic {su'u}. The term prenex is being used a lot here too, and I get the feeling the answer I might get is that it is a "prenex abstractor". But what does that mean? A way to talk about prenexes? e.g. "the prenex, all dogs, is ..." but that's not how the examples are, so that's not it. I don't get it.=C2=A0

Let's take one of the examples:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mi poi'i ke'a viska ke'a - I see myself.

That doesn't look like an abstraction, it looks like a relative clause. And in this case an incidental one. So how is that different from:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 mi noi ke'a viska ke'a - I, who (incidentally) I= see.

Take another example:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 le poi'i ke'a viska ke'a - the ones who see them= selves

So that at least looks like an abstraction. But why can't we just say,

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 le poi ke'a viska ke'a


{poi'i} is a NU abstractor, therefore a poi'i phrase has the form {poi'i [bridi] (kei)}, and behaves as a selbri. Thus it has a syntax different from that of {poi}.

As for its meaning:
=E2=80=A2 fo'a poi'i (ke'a) broda (kei) =3D =C2=AB fo'a is su= ch that [ it/him/he/they brodas ] =C2=BB =3D fo'a broda

So it's a kind of syntactic sugar, it helps having more word order freedom. The ke'a within the bridi enclosed by poi'i-kei binds to (stands for) the x1 of the selbri created by poi'i-kei. {poi'i} parallels the English construction "X is such that ... it ..."


Here are a few examples coming from the new-voi page:

=E2=80=A2 =C2=AB la .pam. cu melbi gi'e poi'i so'i da = nelci (ke'a) (kei) =C2=BB =3D =C2=AB la .pam. cu melbi gi'e se nelci so= 'i da =C2=BB
> "Pam is beautiful and is such that many like her." =3D "Pam is beautiful and is liked by many."

( here, {poi'i so'i da nelci ke'a (kei)}, underlined in the example, is a predicate which means "x1 is such that many things like x1". )

=E2=80=A2 =C2=AB la. pit. cu stati gi'e poi'i so'i da manci lo nu ke= 'a dansu =C2=BB =3D =C2=AB la. pit. cu stati .ije so'i da manci lo nu la .pit. c= u dansu =C2=BB
> "Pete is talented and (is such that) many are amazed by his dancing"

=E2=80=A2 =C2=AB mi kecti lo poi'i ke'a jinvi lo du'u ke'a to= 'e melbi =C2=BB
> "I feel sorry for the-thing(s)-which is/are-such-that= it/they think that it/they are the-opposite-of-beautiful."<= br> > "I feel sorry for those who think that they aren't beautiful."


.a'o mi sidju
mi'e la .ilmen. mu'o

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