Received: from mail-la0-f62.google.com ([209.85.215.62]:52357)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.80.1)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDNZFNNFVAHRBP5QU2QQKGQESU32DCY@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1XYeql-0007ny-Nh
	for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:35:08 -0700
Received: by mail-la0-f62.google.com with SMTP id pv20sf769230lab.27
        for <lojban-list-archive@lojban.org>; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:34:56 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references
         :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help
         :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=TXC8MSvfyU+05B2yyjgRYBIA8Acgst7zpvjXB+wyLcg=;
        b=CCl2UIOW+Hrw6WomQYAvJ5kTM8t+uceWve6wjOuEqJ2pi7uBzLH+qJxBQqmXHGyF25
         t+iNNsK7u6TVmBQcTx/xjnoBCOADw+lInmKz4teLWm0ruPjQh+jZ6DbGQt66ITyzgPxF
         hgXNA2marLqh3cmzJv0874dPqrkl3saT0xv86RTx/Ue+ZN2Z9kFMrJXJTY8BuEVHVI+c
         48cnPCHpdqRtQJR1sLDquodyf068aKFdCUf5GuisL41vLprGeNpHyqSZHNkMIRd6WV6P
         qtM2CgVDduU221zQJbjuqYPzs/G44NeijBm1UhZ0aCzCBxYbjZ7Cr0vRqsq9gp2GUvzb
         bYuw==
X-Received: by 10.152.121.4 with SMTP id lg4mr19351lab.30.1412012096216;
        Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:34:56 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.152.4.7 with SMTP id g7ls135219lag.43.gmail; Mon, 29 Sep 2014
 10:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.112.151.3 with SMTP id um3mr621567lbb.15.1412012095133;
        Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wi0-x231.google.com (mail-wi0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c05::231])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f9si381802wib.2.2014.09.29.10.34.55
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::231;
Received: by mail-wi0-f177.google.com with SMTP id cc10so1618937wib.10
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:34:55 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.180.189.180 with SMTP id gj20mr1044073wic.58.1412012094634;
        Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:34:54 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.208] ([2.31.159.39])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id hk8sm12372456wib.18.2014.09.29.10.34.52
        for <multiple recipients>
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Mon, 29 Sep 2014 10:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <54299863.2010903@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2014 18:35:31 +0100
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120711 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: New soi's scope
References: <CACf3dPkE_stJN1haf26RaQTCP+sdqL9f48q26DkLoE_6BCzdxA@mail.gmail.com> <957408e7-c827-4460-bf97-4a85642f29c7@googlegroups.com> <CACf3dP=ZV7kjsBZF9dLVjg_sV=yrTwnkz9dQ2EuL5ZEnO0cGdA@mail.gmail.com> <95511D584AB54D00B50547BFBC84369C@gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <95511D584AB54D00B50547BFBC84369C@gmail.com>
X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::231
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com;       dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com;       dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
 <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-)
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

Alex Burka, On 29/09/2014 17:25:
> Yeah, the rules for scope-leaping could be more well-defined, though
> the concept seems pretty good to me. As it is, it seems if you have
> two or more {soi} clauses, they have equal scope at the top of the
> sentence, but I don't know if "equal scope" can be formalized.

They could be treated as logically conjoined by AND.

> How would you see a generalized scope-leaping mechanism working?

You could have a scope-leaping-marking UI, and then whatever the rule was g=
oing to be for soi can be ascribed to this UI instead. I shudder to think o=
f how to formulate the rules to stop them leaking, and then all the sentenc=
es that would make no or uncertain sense containing this UI...

> One could argue that scope-leaping should be discouraged as
> confusing, so maybe {soi} should be the only way to do it.

It seems arbitrary to privilege soi. Better to start from a system with sim=
ple scope rules and then delicately investigate whether you can come up wit=
h workable devices to allow surface word order to follow discoursal semanti=
cs or whatever. (My own loglang happens to have utterly free word order, ye=
t is utterly monoparsing.)

> Is there a succinct description of Xorban's binary branching scope
> somewhere? I'm not 100% sure what you mean by that.

The niceties of the analysis of the Xorban remain to be agreed on, but it g=
oes like this: the Xorbo equivalent of Lojbo "lo broda lo brode cu brodi" i=
s "la bbba le ccce dddake" [this from untrustworthy memory], which I'd see =
as having the following structure, where dependents follow and are indented=
 from heads:

la
   bbba
   le
     ccce
     dddake

So each time you introduce a 'sumti' you have the gadri- or quantifier- ana=
logue as head and it has two complements, one for the description/restricti=
on and one for the rest of the proposition.

Lojban's left-to-right scope rule, if we treat Lojban as a variety of human=
 language, must involve a syntax that works along these sorts of lines, so =
that a bridi is made up of nested binary branching phrases consisting of <s=
umti/tag, rest of bridi>, with the first element as head and the interpreta=
tion that the head scopes over the complement. I haven't worked out the det=
ails of that, but the essential insight is that "Scopes-Over" must be a fun=
damental syntactic relation, and you work backwards from that principle to =
work out what the syntactic structure must be.

--And.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.