Received: from mail-ie0-f188.google.com ([209.85.223.188]:39502) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XZIQi-0004Rx-DU for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:50:56 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f188.google.com with SMTP id rl12sf88077iec.5 for ; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:50:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Tyx+2VCiZZeK/X9JEAk//JPQPbav3qLmKgyd+zXhN6E=; b=XJH06xiJiQbdo9NatdR+ScficDQssyVuzP+hbtxSsmT3aCU+qgK6t2SKfCBxs/P1Dl GDI8YhS0YsMj4fUsrOX1Y7mM3tvctdOv9X49746V5rV7ZmBTzLUPLfcJF7kf7dcHvas4 mMMhneykqxyKrVIF80pWbZlhGjuiH1ov4MT+qskDb+nCfxs4B01m3pioK8N/L4PNj160 +OhL5HSOky3a578pxLAxk2ef11N67uG4DUbt4b8U/xV9lDajAm8EknnunKnj2WeWA0/k +icy/xvB5qF7ZBsuHlD5hy8ryv7jgk5p70cM5MpAa8z7A2b/K3Jgoryv+y6sbNav1XuI LkhA== X-Received: by 10.50.178.167 with SMTP id cz7mr151479igc.17.1412164241056; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:50:41 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.142.74 with SMTP id ru10ls1454353igb.23.canary; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:50:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.42.250.206 with SMTP id mp14mr27975959icb.23.1412164240606; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22e.google.com (mail-ig0-x22e.google.com [2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id s5si113516igm.1.2014.10.01.04.50.40 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e; Received: by mail-ig0-f174.google.com with SMTP id l13so114074iga.1 for ; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:50:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.51.2 with SMTP id g2mr18576884igo.7.1412164240466; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.87.228 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Oct 2014 04:50:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20141001085133.GW14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20141001075910.GU14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20141001080447.GV14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20141001085133.GW14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 13:50:40 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL: I'd like to drop the formal grammars. From: Remo Dentato To: lojban X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22e as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1134b6e8eaec6f05045b1b77 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a1134b6e8eaec6f05045b1b77 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Having it there would make possible to check how ther language is supposed to be parsed. I agree it's not easy and would require a deep understanding on how the grammar has been implemented, however it would serve as a basis for any possible discussion on formal grammars. If you simply put it in a file somewhere on the 'Net, how can you guarantee that a future reader of CLL will have access to the right version? If I remember correctly the YACC grammar had to be tweakened somehow to resolve some ambiguity that the EBNF still had. Removing the chapter on formal grammar would only save 30-40 pages, I guess. I would prefer to continue having them in. On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Robin Lee Powell < rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > Reference for who? Who is actually going to type out the YACC or > the PEG from the book, or indeed make any other use of it from the > book? > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 10:25:49AM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote: > > I would suggest to leave it in for reference. If this version of CLL > serves > > as milestones it would be better to have everything in a single place. > > > > I hope the YACC grammar will be replaced by they PEG grammar in next > > version of CLL. > > > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Robin Lee Powell < > > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 12:59:10AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > > > > In the age of ubiquitous internet, I feel that the entire Formal > > > > Grammars chapter simply doesn't belong in a printed book. > > > > > > > > Does anyone disagree? > > > > > > It's worth noting that doing so will require considerable re-wording > > > of Chapter 1, I just discovered. > > > > > > -- > > > http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic > future. > > > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e > > > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e > > > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu > sofybakni > > > li'u > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni > li'u > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a1134b6e8eaec6f05045b1b77 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having it there would make possible to check how= ther language is supposed to be parsed. I agree it's not easy and woul= d require a deep understanding on how the grammar has been implemented, how= ever it would serve as a basis for any possible discussion on formal gramma= rs.

If you simply put it in a file somewhere on the 'Net, how ca= n you guarantee that a future reader of CLL will have access to the right v= ersion?

If I remember correctly the YACC grammar had to be twe= akened somehow to resolve some ambiguity that the EBNF still had.

Removing the chapter on formal grammar would only save 30-40 pages, I g= uess. I would prefer to continue having them in.



On = Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digital= kingdom.org> wrote:
Referen= ce for who?=C2=A0 Who is actually going to type out the YACC or
the PEG from the book, or indeed make any other use of it from the
book?

On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 10:25:49AM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote:
> I would suggest to leave it in for reference. If this version of CLL s= erves
> as milestones it would be better to have everything in a single place.=
>
> I hope the YACC grammar will be replaced by they PEG grammar in next > version of CLL.
>
> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpowell@digitalkingdom= .org> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 12:59:10AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:=
> > >
> > > In the age of ubiquitous internet, I feel that the entire Fo= rmal
> > > Grammars chapter simply doesn't belong in a printed book= .
> > >
> > > Does anyone disagree?
> >
> > It's worth noting that doing so will require considerable re-= wording
> > of Chapter 1, I just discovered.
> >
> > --
> > http://int= elligence.org/ :=C2=A0 Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'= i li'u .e
> > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li= 'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
> > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e= lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni
> > li'u
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= send an
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojba= n+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
http://intelligence.= org/ :=C2=A0 Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u= .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e = lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mam= ta be do cu sofybakni li'u

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+uns= ubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--001a1134b6e8eaec6f05045b1b77--