Received: from mail-ie0-f187.google.com ([209.85.223.187]:33964) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XZIRP-0004Td-Dm for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:51:36 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f187.google.com with SMTP id rd18sf90166iec.14 for ; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=/6e/RzSJGCwrm3Eck5oaVh4Imbmg0dNWZscEJAFa/V0=; b=DQUVLoTmmAGZ4d8KIQKpE9hlvYOSU5GbLkQnu9aeOHddgIKqLyGV5lXj25CqrBLC3h afhHIVzsu3c6I0/VgSHPit3PLfwhEHmcqu+iXK6+U7VRrnTrw7J4Uc0Gf55fldn7NlKi 0DPXO47FSkYt64NQVPz4AphAUUVDsq9ODu6L2Sao/g2ODm174Nj8CA9QVUT4Kft4nKlE Wx8Wdm3unqanS/OeME/XH84gol9iHp13NhKNj/BBJdpGrYxn0iQjS/GrPuqBuhS2uCrm oFJq5WedDsB94Ob8W/OeIHA6Ja3YGPSeU7wNOKtQ7k9MfRiKOXLDVgKtz/GXOc5tP/HD dEdw== X-Received: by 10.50.33.4 with SMTP id n4mr213769igi.14.1412164285587; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.78.169 with SMTP id c9ls936302igx.1.gmail; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.39.15 with SMTP id l15mr9795517igk.8.1412164285344; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ig0-x22c.google.com (mail-ig0-x22c.google.com [2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22c]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 10si114971igt.0.2014.10.01.04.51.25 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22c as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22c; Received: by mail-ig0-f172.google.com with SMTP id r2so100913igi.11 for ; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.94.7 with SMTP id bw7mr63782319icc.26.1412164285244; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.87.228 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Oct 2014 04:51:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20141001085133.GW14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> References: <20141001075910.GU14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20141001080447.GV14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20141001085133.GW14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 13:51:25 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL: I'd like to drop the formal grammars. From: Remo Dentato To: lojban X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c05::22c as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51827ac962fcc05045b1e91 X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --bcaec51827ac962fcc05045b1e91 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Having it there would make possible to check how ther language is supposed to be parsed. I agree it's not easy and would require a deep understanding on how the grammar has been implemented, however it would serve as a basis for any possible discussion on formal grammars. If you simply put it in a file somewhere on the 'Net, how can you guarantee that a future reader of CLL will have access to the right version? If I remember correctly the YACC grammar had to be tweakened somehow to resolve some ambiguity that the EBNF still had. Removing the chapter on formal grammar would only save 30-40 pages, I guess. I would prefer to continue having them in. On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Robin Lee Powell < rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > Reference for who? Who is actually going to type out the YACC or > the PEG from the book, or indeed make any other use of it from the > book? > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 10:25:49AM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote: > > I would suggest to leave it in for reference. If this version of CLL > serves > > as milestones it would be better to have everything in a single place. > > > > I hope the YACC grammar will be replaced by they PEG grammar in next > > version of CLL. > > > > On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Robin Lee Powell < > > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 12:59:10AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: > > > > > > > > In the age of ubiquitous internet, I feel that the entire Formal > > > > Grammars chapter simply doesn't belong in a printed book. > > > > > > > > Does anyone disagree? > > > > > > It's worth noting that doing so will require considerable re-wording > > > of Chapter 1, I just discovered. > > > > > > -- > > > http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic > future. > > > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e > > > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e > > > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu > sofybakni > > > li'u > > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > "lojban" group. > > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an > > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups "lojban" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send > an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni > li'u > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --bcaec51827ac962fcc05045b1e91 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Having it there would make possible to check how= ther language is supposed to be parsed. I agree it's not easy and would require a=20 deep understanding on how the grammar has been implemented, however it=20 would serve as a basis for any possible discussion on formal grammars.
<= br>If you simply put it in a file somewhere on the 'Net, how can you=20 guarantee that a future reader of CLL will have access to the right=20 version?

If I remember correctly the YACC grammar had to be tw= eakened somehow to resolve some ambiguity that the EBNF still had.

<= /div>Removing the chapter on formal grammar would only save 30-40 pages, I = guess. I would prefer to continue having them in.



On Wed, = Oct 1, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingd= om.org> wrote:
Reference for who?=C2=A0 Who is actually going to type out the YACC = or
the PEG from the book, or indeed make any other use of it from the
book?

On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 10:25:49AM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote:
> I would suggest to leave it in for reference. If this version of CLL s= erves
> as milestones it would be better to have everything in a single place.=
>
> I hope the YACC grammar will be replaced by they PEG grammar in next > version of CLL.
>
> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpow= ell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 12:59:10AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:=
> > >
> > > In the age of ubiquitous internet, I feel that the entire Fo= rmal
> > > Grammars chapter simply doesn't belong in a printed book= .
> > >
> > > Does anyone disagree?
> >
> > It's worth noting that doing so will require considerable re-= wording
> > of Chapter 1, I just discovered.
> >
> > --
> > http://int= elligence.org/ :=C2=A0 Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'= i li'u .e
> > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li= 'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
> > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e= lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni
> > li'u
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= send an
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
http://intelligence.= org/ :=C2=A0 Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u= .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e = lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mam= ta be do cu sofybakni li'u

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--bcaec51827ac962fcc05045b1e91--