Received: from mail-ie0-f183.google.com ([209.85.223.183]:36048) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XZIjz-00069g-LD for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 05:10:48 -0700 Received: by mail-ie0-f183.google.com with SMTP id rp18sf90354iec.20 for ; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 05:10:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ge/JxihxNw4dmMA0QyOkA6ivMnPtK0DBCno91edNMkI=; b=zN/R04ysH9XXg8D4pWPQR7EqA7kw3twbbVb0f7XmL5CrTlef7Sxbm+AdiXEeqmZrg5 hefLCgAVizmlJ6i8ZG7Cc+vDbPs46XfxuSo9sAzmKSgipy1bGmzSw0RrVmTxGRo6xdzj S/JvvhZwQGE0AIZrhVdQhEJesdFIgOzAvLTYwBWKWB+JOPvl+ehreBaIAGBJsCfjiJZ4 E8Ur1UhX3IMqCEXIvxAbRxIDd13L8Akqi5IgDoFiOFewVeC0ANCM5UTKwEpERrhaIM8L XgZWyI+nDtJEDxpxbwDKpHe3z+52LYugIyscfodyYtyvtWJ+l9RBDEX6km+nQXUa8R7w qWHg== X-Received: by 10.51.17.104 with SMTP id gd8mr214385igd.7.1412165437292; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 05:10:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.50.50.233 with SMTP id f9ls959566igo.44.gmail; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 05:10:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.50.28.81 with SMTP id z17mr9948405igg.2.1412165436943; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 05:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ie0-x233.google.com (mail-ie0-x233.google.com [2607:f8b0:4001:c03::233]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hz7si100705igb.2.2014.10.01.05.10.36 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Oct 2014 05:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::233 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4001:c03::233; Received: by mail-ie0-x233.google.com with SMTP id ar1so173678iec.38 for ; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 05:10:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.43.94.7 with SMTP id bw7mr63956182icc.26.1412165436706; Wed, 01 Oct 2014 05:10:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.87.228 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Oct 2014 05:10:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20141001075910.GU14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20141001080447.GV14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> <20141001085133.GW14210@stodi.digitalkingdom.org> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2014 14:10:36 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] CLL: I'd like to drop the formal grammars. From: Remo Dentato To: lojban X-Original-Sender: rdentato@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rdentato@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4001:c03::233 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rdentato@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec51827ac381b0e05045b634a X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --bcaec51827ac381b0e05045b634a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The formal grammar is not for nintadni, of course. Is for establishing without doubt what is grammatical and what is not. PEG is indeed simple to read. It is more difficult to create one as there might be "side effects" that are not apparent at first sight (i.e. indirect left recursion or undetected "prefix"). I think that whatever changes is proposed to the language, the first step is to evaluate the impact on the formal grammar. Especially for any experimental cmavo. On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Gleki Arxokuna wrote: > The problem mentioned is not to be ignored. > The refgram actually must give references to certain parts of PEG. > However, it doesnt do it in CLL 1.0 and I'm pretty sure it won't do it > even in CLL 2.0 > > What is more, I have no idea how that would help lo nintadni understand > Lojban better. May be first you need to master PEG before reading CLL? > That'd be silly. > The most probable case would be to rephrase PEG expressions to human > language and include that to CLL. > But, ke'u, that'd be extremely hard although probably necessary in distant > future. > > Has anyone heard of a course something like "Complete Idiot's Guide to > PEG"? > I haven't. > > > 2014-10-01 12:51 GMT+04:00 Robin Lee Powell : > >> Reference for who? Who is actually going to type out the YACC or >> the PEG from the book, or indeed make any other use of it from the >> book? >> >> On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 10:25:49AM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote: >> > I would suggest to leave it in for reference. If this version of CLL >> serves >> > as milestones it would be better to have everything in a single place. >> > >> > I hope the YACC grammar will be replaced by they PEG grammar in next >> > version of CLL. >> > >> > On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Robin Lee Powell < >> > rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote: >> > >> > > On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 12:59:10AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote: >> > > > >> > > > In the age of ubiquitous internet, I feel that the entire Formal >> > > > Grammars chapter simply doesn't belong in a printed book. >> > > > >> > > > Does anyone disagree? >> > > >> > > It's worth noting that doing so will require considerable re-wording >> > > of Chapter 1, I just discovered. >> > > >> > > -- >> > > http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic >> future. >> > > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e >> > > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e >> > > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu >> sofybakni >> > > li'u >> > > >> > > -- >> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups >> > > "lojban" group. >> > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> send an >> > > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> > > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> Groups "lojban" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> -- >> http://intelligence.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >> .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u .e >> lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e >> lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni >> li'u >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --bcaec51827ac381b0e05045b634a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The formal grammar is not for nintadni, of cours= e. Is for establishing without doubt what is grammatical and what is not.
PEG is indeed simple to read. It is more difficult to create on= e as there might be "side effects" that are not apparent at first= sight (i.e. indirect left recursion or undetected "prefix").
I think that whatever changes is proposed to the language, the f= irst step is to evaluate the impact on the formal grammar. Especially for a= ny experimental cmavo.




On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 11:= 00 AM, Gleki Arxokuna <gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com> = wrote:
The problem menti= oned is not to be ignored.
The refgram actually must give references to= certain parts of PEG.
However, it doesnt do it in CLL 1.0 and I&= #39;m pretty sure it won't do it even in CLL 2.0

What is more, I have no idea how that would help lo nintadni understand = Lojban better. May be first you need to master PEG before reading CLL? That= 'd be silly.
The most probable case would be to rephrase PEG = expressions to human language and include that to CLL.
But, ke= 9;u, that'd be extremely hard although probably necessary in distant fu= ture.

Has anyone heard of a course something like = "Complete Idiot's Guide to PEG"?
I haven't.


2014-10-01 12:51 GMT+04:00 = Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>:
Reference for who?=C2=A0 Who is actually go= ing to type out the YACC or
the PEG from the book, or indeed make any other use of it from the
book?

On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 10:25:49AM +0200, Remo Dentato wrote:
> I would suggest to leave it in for reference. If this version of CLL s= erves
> as milestones it would be better to have everything in a single place.=
>
> I hope the YACC grammar will be replaced by they PEG grammar in next > version of CLL.
>
> On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 10:04 AM, Robin Lee Powell <
> rlpow= ell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
>
> > On Wed, Oct 01, 2014 at 12:59:10AM -0700, Robin Lee Powell wrote:=
> > >
> > > In the age of ubiquitous internet, I feel that the entire Fo= rmal
> > > Grammars chapter simply doesn't belong in a printed book= .
> > >
> > > Does anyone disagree?
> >
> > It's worth noting that doing so will require considerable re-= wording
> > of Chapter 1, I just discovered.
> >
> > --
> > http://int= elligence.org/ :=C2=A0 Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
> > .i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'= i li'u .e
> > lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li= 'u .e lu go'i na'i li'u .e
> > lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e= lu lo mamta be do cu sofybakni
> > li'u
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Googl= e Groups
> > "lojban" group.
> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,= send an
> > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> >
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
http://intelligence.= org/ :=C2=A0 Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
.i ko na cpedu lo nu stidi vau loi jbopre .i dafsku lu na go'i li'u= .e
lu go'i li'u .i ji'a go'i lu na'e go'i li'u .e = lu go'i na'i li'u .e
lu no'e go'i li'u .e lu to'e go'i li'u .e lu lo mam= ta be do cu sofybakni li'u

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit http= s://groups.google.com/d/optout.
--bcaec51827ac381b0e05045b634a--