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Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 17:43:50 -0400
From: Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
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* Sunday, 2014-10-05 at 14:10 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.co=
m>:

> On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 12:35 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
>=20
> > * Saturday, 2014-10-04 at 13:07 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=EDas
> > > Does it unwrap "li mo'e lo broda" in any way?
> > Only in that it parses the sumti, yielding
> >     broda(c0); [Fragment: [c0]]
> >     cy no broda .i li mo'e cy no te'u lo'o
>=20
> Shouldn't "li mo'e cy no te'u lo'o" reduce to "cy no"?

Probably - but I'm considering performing such reductions a separate
problem, one I'm ignoring for now.

> I guess "li mo'e sumti-6 te'u lo'o" has to be equivalent to "sumti-6",
> but I don't know what happens when a quantifier or a logical
> connective gets involved. Maybe "li mo'e ci ko'a" =3D "lo ci ko'a", and
> "li mo'e ko'a .e ko'e" =3D "ko'a jo'u ko'e".

I don't see how you get those. I get:

broda li mo'e ko'a e ko'e ->
    (broda( ,[{ko'a}]) /\ broda( ,[{ko'e}]))
    ge broda li mo'e ko'a te'u lo'o gi broda li mo'e ko'e te'u lo'o

broda li mo'e ko'a .e ko'e ->
    EQ(3) x1:(({ko'a}) >=3D (_)). broda( ,[x1])
    ci da poi ke'a me ko'a me'u ku'o zo'u broda li mo'e da te'u lo'o

> > Uhoh.
> > So if there are five contextually relevant apples, you would never
> > understand {lo plise goi ko'a} to be referring to just one of them?
>=20
> How would I know which one?

What if you could guess from context? e.g. only one is red, and I say
{lo plise cu xunre}. You seem to be saying that this must involve
a universe shift to exclude the other four?

> I may perhaps understand it as referring to them as if they were one, i.e.
> I could abstract away the different instances of Apple as I can abstract
> away the temporal dimension and consider all the different temporal
> instances as one, in cases where the different positions that Apple is
> taking are not relevant.
>=20
> No description will ever be enough to pick the referent out uniquely in an
> absolute sense. The universe of discourse is not something that we have as
> a given, it's something that we have to construct and negotiate as the
> discourse proceeds. If you tell me that we already know for sure that the
> universe of discourse contains five things that satisfy "plise", then I
> would say that "lo pise" can only be "lo mu plise".

So are you saying that {lo plise} *always* refers to Apple? Such that
it isn't really a matter of presuppositions after all, but rather of
ensuring our universes are equipped with kinds?

Martin

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