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Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2014 19:38:13 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2fdDnOG5OSU5wJ=MQaDMroy3Ht45WjkMnCKBG1o9ofUTg@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

> * Sunday, 2014-10-05 at 14:10 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gma=
il.com
> >:
>
> > I guess "li mo'e sumti-6 te'u lo'o" has to be equivalent to "sumti-6",
> > but I don't know what happens when a quantifier or a logical
> > connective gets involved. Maybe "li mo'e ci ko'a" =3D "lo ci ko'a", and
> > "li mo'e ko'a .e ko'e" =3D "ko'a jo'u ko'e".
>
> I don't see how you get those. I get:
>
> broda li mo'e ko'a e ko'e ->
>     (broda( ,[{ko'a}]) /\ broda( ,[{ko'e}]))
>     ge broda li mo'e ko'a te'u lo'o gi broda li mo'e ko'e te'u lo'o
>

That's assuming that "li mo'e ko'a .e ko'e" =3D "li mo'e ko'a je mo'e ko'e"=
 =3D
"li mo'e ko'a .e li mo'e ko'e".

That would mean, for example, that "li (expression)" does not always refer
to the value of the expression but can be some operation transforming the
bridi in which it occurs as an argument. My take is that sumti-6 is
generally just a constant (or a function if it contains internally unbound
variables). I'm not sure if that's the correct interpretation, but it seems
to be the simplest. (There are also some weird cases like "ko", "ma", and
"zi'o" that need to be treated separately.)

> > Uhoh.
> > > So if there are five contextually relevant apples, you would never
> > > understand {lo plise goi ko'a} to be referring to just one of them?
> >
> > How would I know which one?
>
> What if you could guess from context? e.g. only one is red, and I say
> {lo plise cu xunre}. You seem to be saying that this must involve
> a universe shift to exclude the other four?
>

Either that, or interpret that Apple can be red over here and not red
elsewhere. Just as if I say "lo plise cu makcu" I'm not necessarily
claiming it has always been so. I might respond something like "ie lo vi
plise cu xunre", or "pa lo plise cu xunre", to make sure we are on the same
page about what we mean to refer to with "lo plise".

So are you saying that {lo plise} *always* refers to Apple? Such that
> it isn't really a matter of presuppositions after all, but rather of
> ensuring our universes are equipped with kinds?


I don't think so. What things are or are not in the universe of discourse
is a matter of interpretation, and doesn't really affect the logical form.
The presupposition is that when you use "lo plise" there's something you
are talking about, and that something is identified by their satisfying the
predicate "plise". Kinds may be one candidate interpretation, especially
with so little context.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Sun, Oct 5, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Martin Bays <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mbays@sdf.org" target=3D"_blank">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">* Sunday, 2014-10-05 at 14:10 -0300 =
- Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambia=
s@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br><span class=3D""><br>
&gt; I guess &quot;li mo&#39;e sumti-6 te&#39;u lo&#39;o&quot; has to be eq=
uivalent to &quot;sumti-6&quot;,<br>
&gt; but I don&#39;t know what happens when a quantifier or a logical<br>
&gt; connective gets involved. Maybe &quot;li mo&#39;e ci ko&#39;a&quot; =
=3D &quot;lo ci ko&#39;a&quot;, and<br>
&gt; &quot;li mo&#39;e ko&#39;a .e ko&#39;e&quot; =3D &quot;ko&#39;a jo&#39=
;u ko&#39;e&quot;.<br>
<br>
</span>I don&#39;t see how you get those. I get:<br>
<br>
broda li mo&#39;e ko&#39;a e ko&#39;e -&gt;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 (broda( ,[{ko&#39;a}]) /\ broda( ,[{ko&#39;e}]))<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ge broda li mo&#39;e ko&#39;a te&#39;u lo&#39;o gi broda li m=
o&#39;e ko&#39;e te&#39;u lo&#39;o<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>That=
&#39;s assuming that &quot;li mo&#39;e ko&#39;a .e ko&#39;e&quot; =3D &quot=
;li mo&#39;e ko&#39;a je mo&#39;e ko&#39;e&quot; =3D &quot;li mo&#39;e ko&#=
39;a .e li mo&#39;e ko&#39;e&quot;.</div><div><br></div><div>That would mea=
n, for example, that &quot;li (expression)&quot; does not always refer to t=
he value of the expression but can be some operation transforming the bridi=
 in which it occurs as an argument. My take is that sumti-6 is generally ju=
st a constant (or a function if it contains internally unbound variables). =
I&#39;m not sure if that&#39;s the correct interpretation, but it seems to =
be the simplest. (There are also some weird cases like &quot;ko&quot;, &quo=
t;ma&quot;, and &quot;zi&#39;o&quot; that need to be treated separately.)=
=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
&gt; &gt; Uhoh.<br>
&gt; &gt; So if there are five contextually relevant apples, you would neve=
r<br>
&gt; &gt; understand {lo plise goi ko&#39;a} to be referring to just one of=
 them?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; How would I know which one?<br>
<br>
</span>What if you could guess from context? e.g. only one is red, and I sa=
y<br>
{lo plise cu xunre}. You seem to be saying that this must involve<br>
a universe shift to exclude the other four?<br></blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>Either that, or interpret that Apple can be red over here and not red =
elsewhere. Just as if I say &quot;lo plise cu makcu&quot; I&#39;m not neces=
sarily claiming it has always been so. I might respond something like &quot=
;ie lo vi plise cu xunre&quot;, or &quot;pa lo plise cu xunre&quot;, to mak=
e sure we are on the same page about what we mean to refer to with &quot;lo=
 plise&quot;.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=
=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">So are y=
ou saying that {lo plise} *always* refers to Apple? Such that<br>
it isn&#39;t really a matter of presuppositions after all, but rather of<br=
>
ensuring our universes are equipped with kinds?</blockquote><div><br></div>=
<div>I don&#39;t think so. What things are or are not in the universe of di=
scourse is a matter of interpretation, and doesn&#39;t really affect the lo=
gical form. The presupposition is that when you use &quot;lo plise&quot; th=
ere&#39;s something you are talking about, and that something is identified=
 by their satisfying the predicate &quot;plise&quot;. Kinds may be one cand=
idate interpretation, especially with so little context.</div><div><br></di=
v><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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