Received: from mail-lb0-f192.google.com ([209.85.217.192]:33936)
	by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128)
	(Exim 4.80.1)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncBDNZFNNFVAHRBAHEZ6QQKGQE7PEILLY@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1XbVJg-0007hB-Ld
	for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:00:49 -0700
Received: by mail-lb0-f192.google.com with SMTP id f15sf633745lbj.19
        for <lojban-list-archive@lojban.org>; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:00:33 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806;
        h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references
         :in-reply-to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results
         :reply-to:precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help
         :list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type
         :content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=hVtMX93rMyg3rDEIAxAyXg42Z8GG0sFR6OKn+k91S1Y=;
        b=VrcCjdn7MPDQ01XmLknXY/yJAr/eTUC+JSb/iNT9vwlh/TpkC4LZa/1MdiAbjHId0z
         mkx1/wm8KiNa2hU74ZrGmHJ0cHop72jeU1c0Re6j96N4XVPaeE12BluMFXsGtV8xtB7Q
         moNmIaA3vD1gvJodtTewjmvV/j12QZwuYT7EbpQhhiEjBc6f1822dhV1AjHkIr18oSty
         JVkUwKW6QNRaO+No//V7KGi52hopG/a8Z9wEWoRzo/cng4Z5vJM782Z0all0fGK1KP8d
         eEzg00axMIyBEam79gXgjOeNnc3iu+wkkqBhCPIRQCEDqPZ0ABEjGGSjLtJvv23S4Zo3
         XQXQ==
X-Received: by 10.152.87.13 with SMTP id t13mr4311laz.37.1412690433139;
        Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:00:33 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.152.37.99 with SMTP id x3ls698600laj.90.gmail; Tue, 07 Oct
 2014 07:00:32 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.112.157.193 with SMTP id wo1mr78694lbb.19.1412690432103;
        Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:00:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mail-wg0-x231.google.com (mail-wg0-x231.google.com [2a00:1450:400c:c00::231])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h1si141033wib.0.2014.10.07.07.00.32
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:00:32 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c00::231;
Received: by mail-wg0-f49.google.com with SMTP id x12so9526518wgg.32
        for <lojban@googlegroups.com>; Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 10.194.190.116 with SMTP id gp20mr5135004wjc.27.1412690431673;
        Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:00:31 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from [192.168.1.208] ([95.147.226.63])
        by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id p2sm2929777wiy.1.2014.10.07.07.00.30
        for <multiple recipients>
        (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128);
        Tue, 07 Oct 2014 07:00:30 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <5433F201.2020902@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 07 Oct 2014 15:00:33 +0100
From: And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com>
User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:14.0) Gecko/20120711 Thunderbird/14.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
References: <5349359c-f884-4976-a3e1-b0610eabeff6@googlegroups.com> <CAO7tK2c5fi5d+1Rc=1eXJEG_1a8QMeGe6Uy5psMYAWqkTO3ciQ@mail.gmail.com> <20140928013358.GB28734@gonzales> <CAO7tK2ds0RxZnHoUSodwty5hjWk+6hpKPj_Y8NoVy+paOc44sg@mail.gmail.com> <20140928152915.GB7320@gonzales> <CAO7tK2eST7Fj3qQa2DKrmfPP8pYQPToCQL7x7v8xWUqAn5FARQ@mail.gmail.com> <20141004141407.GG32481@gonzales> <CAO7tK2fS_pTD3snnSeQ4meDbrBhS_v8RCJvPvbEuLjXDhx-Drw@mail.gmail.com> <20141005153531.GA1974@gonzales> <CAO7tK2f_GVeDL5Qukx1k+3wTg5aVcY+z4W6JjB=hF1JGHzwwAw@mail.gmail.com> <20141005214350.GC1974@gonzales> <CAO7tK2fdDnOG5OSU5wJ=MQaDMroy3Ht45WjkMnCKBG1o9ofUTg@mail.gmail.com> <CACf3dPn1uunMicCRD8OgqVxLMSRpjMTjS-kB1Mrk3XMGZCkYcQ@mail.gmail.com> <CAO7tK2c62t+Q42aEoH16KTfviM527==ZyRboFdp0MbP=E4P6xA@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CAO7tK2c62t+Q42aEoH16KTfviM527==ZyRboFdp0MbP=E4P6xA@mail.gmail.com>
X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com;       spf=pass
 (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c00::231
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com;       dkim=pass
 header.i=@gmail.com;       dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <mailto:googlegroups-manage+1004133512417+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>,
 <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-)
X-Spam_score: -1.9
X-Spam_score_int: -18
X-Spam_bar: -

Jorge Llamb=EDas, On 06/10/2014 23:10:
> On Mon, Oct 6, 2014 at 9:55 AM, And Rosta <and.rosta@gmail.com <mailto:an=
d.rosta@gmail.com>> wrote: =20
>     On 5 Oct 2014 23:38, "Jorge Llamb=EDas" <jjllambias@gmail.com <mailto=
:jjllambias@gmail.com>> wrote:
>     > The presupposition is that when you use "lo plise" there's somethin=
g you are talking about, and that something is identified by their satisfyi=
ng the predicate "plise".
>
>     What sort of identification is this? It sounds like you're saying lo =
is definite, and attributing to it the sense I had understood le to have, w=
ith nonveridical description?
>
> I looked up "veridicality" in Wikipedia, to see if we are talking about t=
he same thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veridicality

Not really a helpful move, since we are after specifically its application =
to definite descriptions, where I believe general and jboske application of=
 the term are congruent.

>     So {lo broda cu brodu} is not equivalent to {zo'e ge broda gi brodu}?
>
> I would say they are not equivalent because that it brodas is in one
> case presupposed and in the other case asserted.

Okay. That answers my question. What's the rationale for your answer (i.e. =
for holding that the lo description is presupposed)?
 =20
>     If this is already covered somewhere else on wiki or in archives, jus=
t point me to it.
>
> I don't think there is any concentrated full coverage anywhere.

I have seen attempts to define {lo} periphrastically using {zo'e}. Since af=
aik Lojban has no words for marking presupposition, any periphrasis (withou=
t the requisite neologistic presupposition-markers) is doomed to fail.

--And.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e=
mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.