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[216.39.63.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hz7si1660167igb.2.2014.10.09.06.26.47 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Oct 2014 06:26:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.63.49; Received: from [216.39.60.175] by nm21.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2014 13:26:46 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.254] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2014 13:26:46 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1025.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2014 13:26:46 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 668505.48371.bm@omp1025.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 47630 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Oct 2014 13:26:46 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: pdoBOwgVM1lxvtr5S1H2hgyXp1SFycVZ_z0U0_ODOJc1IB8 Eq6g148ZW8p90XNOdODKN.rwkb2.sqSzAg0.2wDlmyMYRxvLObaCLag2Myg6 c2JQtmL3HhEHHpYFFD6Y9_Tv7m5fdaKqRi4OvzhKF6uX0KG9AKJNrB4AYHul v7eWCS79Nrp5bpvR0DxHYm5wJkdbo5RFZuabhPncYGX4cJl4MIWgxR9A7_UP DPVr7s1xsZ7RcnRRfsrbJVlJ0n3MPqu_Osha9SyMlh45VmrGM3HPKI2QDEYw IoH_8l36bvDIVZqmi2cdrKlhk2T4AIgq2yMiRb6BN3gWkUmcPbsLRbEWeAFy O29kziCkMeK2M_velMI.__uczjcsHMjEVYYU6s2JlWXMRMzJgjCHtye6u.dR fr1zu5VabcGVxHt89rbRVE5fUytVFjlMoUwobNEyexc7CsnWJKJh1gTYc3ID YFTGS4aLLd2vK2oiAsVoliIEm2QFdCf6h452lWZI5i68S0Blxkz_6TVAxABb xOoA4EY4kS.VqeFGgiLzineTUFGyAjv0yJGQGlSWeIe8o5_5c2_jKvyAUc8i JWSKmFsXYIA8zszSHiskplHS.Lm..tdFPR3vlEQfGI.UH4ZDG80wZE7X0fNI __2e6IEmDHcqZVwOQUYmky.BI_7N0jIeoUiLHzVkA_nHTwgn31.OTS9y8Sw3 X39git_EU_BtiqdVXSYOFh1ovmO6FkUJilWChnt2yf54- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Oct 2014 06:26:45 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,VGhlIGZhY3QgdGhhdCB7em8nZX0gZ2V0cyBpdHMgbWVhbmluZyBmcm9tIGNvbnRleHQsIHNwZWNpZmljYWxseSBmcm9tIHRoZSBwbGFjZSBpdCBmaWxscywgaXMgZW5vdWdoIHRvIHVuZGVyY3V0IHRoZSBkZWZpbml0aW9uIG9mIHtsb30sIHNpbmNlIHRoZSByZWZlcmVudCAoYW5kZiB0aGUgY2xhc3MgZnJvbSB3aGljaCB0aGUgcmVmZXJlbnQgaXMgZHJhd24pIGNhbiB0aGVuIGNoYW5nZSB3aXRoIGVhY2ggdXNlLiAgQnV0LCBmdXJ0aGVyLCB0aGUgcmVmZXJlbnQgb2Yge3pvJ2V9IGhhcyB0byBiZSBvbmUgdGgBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5349359c-f884-4976-a3e1-b0610eabeff6@googlegroups.com> <20140928013358.GB28734@gonzales> <20140928152915.GB7320@gonzales> <20141004141407.GG32481@gonzales> <20141005153531.GA1974@gonzales> <20141005214350.GC1974@gonzales> <5433F201.2020902@gmail.com> <5434EA6C.9090507@gmail.com> <1412802488.55250.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412861205.15295.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 06:26:45 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.63.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-1921508757-1412861205=:15295" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ---204173969-1921508757-1412861205=:15295 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The fact that {zo'e} gets its meaning from context, specifically from the p= lace it fills, is enough to undercut the definition of {lo}, since the refe= rent (andf the class from which the referent is drawn) can then change with= each use. But, further, the referent of {zo'e} has to be one that makes t= he head bridi true else it fails in its fundamental purpose, to fill the mi= ssing pieces in a claim (which is not going to be falsified -- we hope -- b= y what is not said). This does not mean that nothing but platitudes can be= said in Lojban, only that the nonplatitudinous parts are explicit. What {z= o'e} contributes (if anything), depends upon its scope (not resolved, but p= resumably shortest) and is only a problem in its supposed role in {lo}. Th= is is an argumentum ad absurdum against that role. Insofar as parser expansions use MEX they are suspect, as is all of MEX ex = officio. Once the core is properly dealt with (and this, again ex officio,= does not involve MEX) MEX can be examined to see what way of dealing ith i= t fits (or can be made to fit) with the basics. On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 6:18 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: =20 On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:08 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: So, insert the definition into its proper place: {lo broda cu brode} =3D {ze'a noi broda cu brode}. This latter is a tautology, since {ze'a} always refers to a thing which makes the predication true.=20 I don't think that's the right definition for "zo'e". If zo'e made any sent= ence in which it appears true, it would be hard to express anything but pla= titudes in Lojban. You would be forced to fill every place of every predica= te you use in order to say anything meaningful. "zo'e" gets its referents from the context, but it is not necessarily somet= hing that will make the sentence in which it appears true. Finally, a practical note. Whatever the point of all this is, dealing with MEX now is bad idea. Given that the creators of Lojban don't know how MEX works and, to a great extent, don't even know how it should work, trying to explain it now is a thankless task foreddomed to failure. Eventually, when you have a successful theory (of whatever sort you are working on) for the core of Lojban, you will be in a position to apply that theory to MEX to explain how parts of it work and to criticize and guide the development of other parts.=20 Hopefully. But not now and not yet as a part of e\developing that theory. I tend to agree, but since some MEX are used in the parser expansions, we e= ither need to understand what they mean or replace them with more suitable = expansions. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-1921508757-1412861205=:15295 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The fact that {zo'e} gets its meaning from context= , specifically from the place it fills, is enough to undercut the definitio= n of {lo}, since the referent (andf the class from which the referent is dr= awn) can then change with each use.  But, further, the referent of {zo= 'e} has to be one that makes the head bridi true else it fails in its funda= mental purpose, to fill the missing pieces in a claim (which is not going t= o be falsified -- we hope -- by what is not said).  This does not mean= that nothing but platitudes can be said in Lojban, only that the nonplatit= udinous parts are explicit. What {zo'e} contributes (if anything), depends = upon its scope (not resolved, but presumably shortest) and is only a proble= m in its supposed role in {lo}.  This is an argumentum ad absurdum against that role.

Insofar as parser expansions use MEX they are suspect, as is = all of MEX ex officio.  Once the core is properly dealt with (and this= , again ex officio, does not involve MEX) MEX can be examined to see what w= ay of dealing ith it fits (or can be made to fit) with the basics.


On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 6:18 PM, Jorge Ll= amb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:


<= div class=3D"y_msg_container">

On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:08 PM, 'John E Clifford= ' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

 So, insert the definition into its proper p= lace: {lo broda cu brode} =3D {ze'a noi broda cu brode}. This latter is a tautology, since {ze'a} always refers to a thing which makes the predication true.

I don't think that's the right definition for "zo'e". If zo'e made any s= entence in which it appears true, it would be hard to express anything but = platitudes in Lojban. You would be forced to fill every place of every pred= icate you use in order to say anything meaningful.
=

"zo'e" gets its referents from the conte= xt, but it is not necessarily something that will make the sentence in whic= h it appears true.


Finally, a practical note. Whatever the point of all this is, dealing with MEX now is bad idea. Given that the creators of Lojban don't know how MEX works and, to a great extent, don't even know how it should work, trying to explain it now is a thankless task foreddomed to failure. Eventually, when you have a successful theory (of whatever sort you are working on) for the core of Lojban, you will be in a position to apply that theory to MEX to explain how parts of it work and to criticize and guide the development of other parts.=20 Hopefully. But not now and not yet as a part of e\developing that theory.

I tend to agree, but since some MEX are used in the pa= rser expansions, we either need to understand what they mean or replace the= m with more suitable expansions.

mu= 'o mi'e xorxes


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