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[216.109.115.227]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id cf6si860703qcb.2.2014.10.09.09.15.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Oct 2014 09:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.227 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.115.227; Received: from [66.196.81.159] by nm27.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2014 16:15:35 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.151] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2014 16:15:34 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1027.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 09 Oct 2014 16:15:34 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 936166.53009.bm@omp1027.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 12950 invoked by uid 60001); 9 Oct 2014 16:15:34 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: ufx..WsVM1miVTJXiyOzoMtmzEMoLt8z41xKIvq2dC5rV31 A3hS9EEEqD0hRbaHluqaRm0ZJbLo6YKBvfAXq1aVMXUWJa1mtjcdqLv5RCJt rerK70sxoutxjPOMzCaZriwF0lo00WT7gvGgzP.GMLj9H7IrofTJy.MpPjhm .nmARJ7HXZZmGCZ70HeTaakEqC5awRPgEybgs31t1CdCnmd7McKCMvXfZk3e g4FnR9KV_VeDSUQmaiFvxtRUj3CN_ldWeTq1rEEqMP3mPjWIwhjHul3S6DaJ Sc1hqpguGd5mWJquP7jCUXD0Ki5qBj25q16cXFLChZZA5BwegAiI3_MKOKyF sOpsi.P0_sGopDga6fybkNOyJ9FzVTNkmA6FSJeBeTgf0KMDnMHgZcoSIKyh oLZ6k0NSMOhC6pPjCoLubny0eX0YDZElZeC2HTcZ8bbgIA3yfGS_fqvlTKdN YKES1uwNAXj5yiXp30SGeXVvKYzpe11KMcuTckukpJJ02qG5YXx8SuYPyCgd ZVba1H.0GJ6krYVxxmNaShNn6OrD8T0rCIWix7AyPfNjFtnZ1I9dLeat3jwB .5phMFYh0FvQeCdTEII9WuZPYaF3d99aMVJTvJAVLVl4KmDL8Z1FmmrF4jA_ B98BW8xfiJ_3ACwAqWKPeyG9Iia_CWUP86m0SpY7TD4Yjw_l7LeCgtki_wvX Y39dpiHhG4dhULEvnYL6yqXnnzMVc70YWJVtdRoIN Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 09 Oct 2014 09:15:34 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,T2theSwgbm90IGV4YWN0bHkgYSB0YXV0b2xvZ3ksIGJ1dCBmYWlsaW5nIGluIGEgcGFydGljdWxhcmx5IHF1ZXN0aW9uYWJsZSB3YXkuICBUaGF0IGlzLCB7em8nZSBicm9kZX0gaXMgZmFsc2UgKG9yLCBhdCBsZWFzdCwgbm90IHRydWUpIGp1c3QgaW4gY2FzZSB0aGVyZSBhcmUgbm8gYnJvZGUsIGluIHdoaWNoIGNhc2Uge3pvJ2V9IGlzIHJlZmVyZW50bGVzcywgdG8gdGhlIGRpc2d1c3Qgb2YgR3JpY2VhbnMgYW5kIHRoZSBwdXp6bGVtZW50IG9mIGxvZ2ljaWFucy4gIFNpbWlsYXJseSwgb2YgY291cnNlLCABMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5349359c-f884-4976-a3e1-b0610eabeff6@googlegroups.com> <20140928013358.GB28734@gonzales> <20140928152915.GB7320@gonzales> <20141004141407.GG32481@gonzales> <20141005153531.GA1974@gonzales> <20141005214350.GC1974@gonzales> <5433F201.2020902@gmail.com> <5434EA6C.9090507@gmail.com> <1412802488.55250.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412861205.15295.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412871334.88429.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 9 Oct 2014 09:15:34 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1412861205.15295.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.115.227 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-910415156-1837160354-1412871334=:88429" X-Spam-Score: -2.7 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.7 X-Spam_score_int: -26 X-Spam_bar: -- ---910415156-1837160354-1412871334=:88429 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Okay, not exactly a tautology, but failing in a particularly questionable w= ay. That is, {zo'e brode} is false (or, at least, not true) just in case t= here are no brode, in which case {zo'e} is referentless, to the disgust of = Griceans and the puzzlement of logicians. Similarly, of course, {lo broda = cu broda} is false when there are not broda, i.e., when we were so rude as = to to use {lo broda} inappropriately. So {brode zo'e noi broda} is false i= f there are no brode or if those selected from the existing brode are not b= roda. Contrastively, {lo broda cu brode} is false if there are no broda or= if the selected from among the existing broda are not brode. Once again, = the definition fails. =20 Can someone remind me why there was this attempt at a definition in the fir= st place? {lo broda} looks a reasonable candidate for a primitive notion o= r, at worst, one to be defined eventually in terms of application, the ulti= mate fundamental notion. On Thursday, October 9, 2014 8:26 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: =20 The fact that {zo'e} gets its meaning from context, specifically from the p= lace it fills, is enough to undercut the definition of {lo}, since the refe= rent (andf the class from which the referent is drawn) can then change with= each use. But, further, the referent of {zo'e} has to be one that makes t= he head bridi true else it fails in its fundamental purpose, to fill the mi= ssing pieces in a claim (which is not going to be falsified -- we hope -- b= y what is not said). This does not mean that nothing but platitudes can be= said in Lojban, only that the nonplatitudinous parts are explicit. What {z= o'e} contributes (if anything), depends upon its scope (not resolved, but p= resumably shortest) and is only a problem in its supposed role in {lo}. Th= is is an argumentum ad absurdum against that role. Insofar as parser expansions use MEX they are suspect, as is all of MEX ex = officio. Once the core is properly dealt with (and this, again ex officio,= does not involve MEX) MEX can be examined to see what way of dealing ith i= t fits (or can be made to fit) with the basics. On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 6:18 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: =20 On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:08 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: So, insert the definition into its proper place: {lo broda cu brode} =3D {ze'a noi broda cu brode}. This latter is a tautology, since {ze'a} always refers to a thing which makes the predication true.=20 I don't think that's the right definition for "zo'e". If zo'e made any sent= ence in which it appears true, it would be hard to express anything but pla= titudes in Lojban. You would be forced to fill every place of every predica= te you use in order to say anything meaningful. "zo'e" gets its referents from the context, but it is not necessarily somet= hing that will make the sentence in which it appears true. Finally, a practical note. Whatever the point of all this is, dealing with MEX now is bad idea. Given that the creators of Lojban don't know how MEX works and, to a great extent, don't even know how it should work, trying to explain it now is a thankless task foreddomed to failure. Eventually, when you have a successful theory (of whatever sort you are working on) for the core of Lojban, you will be in a position to apply that theory to MEX to explain how parts of it work and to criticize and guide the development of other parts.=20 Hopefully. But not now and not yet as a part of e\developing that theory. I tend to agree, but since some MEX are used in the parser expansions, we e= ither need to understand what they mean or replace them with more suitable = expansions. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---910415156-1837160354-1412871334=:88429 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Okay, = not exactly a tautology, but failing in a particularly questionable way. &n= bsp;That is, {zo'e brode} is false (or, at least, not true) just in case there are no brode, in which case {zo'e} is referentless, to the = disgust of Griceans and the puzzlement of logicians.  Similarly, of co= urse, {lo broda cu broda} is false when there are not broda, i.e., when we = were so rude as to to use {lo broda} inappropriately.  So {brode zo'e = noi broda} is false if there are no brode or if those selected from the exi= sting brode are not broda.  Contrastively, {lo broda cu brode} is fals= e if there are no broda or if the selected from among the existing broda ar= e not brode.  Once again, the definition fails.  
Can someone remind me why there = was this attempt at a definition in the first place?  {lo broda} looks= a reasonable candidate for a primitive notion or, at worst, one to be defi= ned eventually in terms of application, the ultimate fundamental notion.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 8:26 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lo= jban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
<= /div>

The fact that {zo'e} gets its meaning from context, specifically from= the place it fills, is enough to undercut the definition of {lo}, since th= e referent (andf the class from which the referent is drawn) can then chang= e with each use.  But, further, the referent of {zo'e} has to be one t= hat makes the head bridi true else it fails in its fundamental purpose, to = fill the missing pieces in a claim (which is not going to be falsified -- w= e hope -- by what is not said).  This does not mean that nothing but p= latitudes can be said in Lojban, only that the nonplatitudinous parts are explicit. What {zo'e} contributes= (if anything), depends upon its scope (not resolved, but presumably shorte= st) and is only a problem in its supposed role in {lo}.  This is an ar= gumentum ad absurdum against that role.

Insofar as parser expansions use MEX they are suspe= ct, as is all of MEX ex officio.  Once the core is properly dealt with= (and this, again ex officio, does not involve MEX) MEX can be examined to = see what way of dealing ith it fits (or can be made to fit) with the basics= .


On Wednesday, October 8, 2014 6:18 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambi= as@gmail.com> wrote:



<= div class=3D"" style=3D"">On Wed, Oct 8, 2014 at 6:08 PM, 'John E Clifford'= via lojban <lojban@goog= legroups.com> wrote:

<= /div>
 So, insert= the definition into its proper place: {lo broda cu brode} =3D {ze'a noi broda cu brode}. This latter is a tautology, since {ze'a} always refers to a thing which makes the predication true.

I don'= t think that's the right definition for "zo'e". If zo'e made any sentence i= n which it appears true, it would be hard to express anything but platitude= s in Lojban. You would be forced to fill every place of every predicate you= use in order to say anything meaningful.

"zo'e" gets its referents from the c= ontext, but it is not necessarily something that will make the sentence in = which it appears true.


<= font color=3D"#000000" class=3D"" style=3D"">Finally, a practical note. Whatever the point of all this is, dealing with MEX now is bad idea. Given that the creators of Lojban don't know how MEX works and, to a great extent, don't even know how it should work, trying to explain it now is a thankless task foreddomed to failure. Eventually, when you have a successful theory (of whatever sort you are working on) for the core of Lojban, you will be in a position to apply that theory to MEX to explain how parts of it work and to criticize and guide the development of other parts.=20 Hopefully. But not now and not yet as a part of e\developing that theory.

I tend to agree, but since some MEX are used in the parser expans= ions, we either need to understand what they mean or replace them with more= suitable expansions.

mu'o mi'e xorxes
=


<= /div>
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