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[216.39.62.56]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bp17si36273pdb.2.2014.10.10.05.40.37 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Oct 2014 05:40:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.62.56 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.39.62.56; Received: from [216.39.60.166] by nm25.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2014 12:40:37 -0000 Received: from [216.39.60.234] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2014 12:40:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1005.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 10 Oct 2014 12:40:37 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 543385.65826.bm@omp1005.access.mail.gq1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 29717 invoked by uid 60001); 10 Oct 2014 12:40:37 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: yWnrEL4VM1m.Uss47xwa_tcRUcx_l2LjvfM6nB7tS2uFxP. raN0SNPBRBP97CmZePMQLlJvpZb0vkYeS0cwajZIk5Asaa1ZXpvvNtM_.Li3 jcqVqSYU9u8eSWHRoqgHYKFGroCl0IKxdli_hT1q_CXl9wcOk8lt9XdBic5D lXCNYgnqttePVsRSz1VNSWNW4hr5FFND1QO6QvAZjVg8tV9FDE13crRRVk6T 8HDoVgCwXvcTZEKBM5CI18vvUQumQoB2v9SvRLzdiMWL4DuhajyugmLwgkqR BkjOvNYpQkS2l7VU9kxLMmlhLRsD_DC3TTlXuIJVcAsanwvK1WiEC.FfiBwX mIwYSt6LAgITegasOZNlFNlJ6XI99SlvTSX8IpzsD8XSiVP2wW1eGXdizjYm LFpiyeaJg9lxW9e.G.ZkUMbDVcwlj.XUF5h8ZZA2wF2EeXFG4MgPxSwIW1ma fnJnmu2fLfESKn6BwC06iyeMOc9kQUfXAwt_a.rhKkNU97dzDuUZSuu4oeJ3 esEO6s4sv1Lm4r79F1NReHnhy0dmQwUdWeSkR2WmKutbOm1QxuIJyLgp.TMT p1uzOXZ9SQxtqBWrD5SfkdnPI_J6XYc_MhOhGWwfHLNO57NyhIghJkHOai7i UlLT30Kc_AT7JLs6.fq481ct3CuyrgRltkoUgPMxsG_4cypMOMWLLRWGjRhG mhYG8SlDtr8KifHaBJnMocfA_larH6dna44SR5Mgh90g- Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 05:40:37 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,U28sIGFzc3VtaW5nIHRoYXQgd2UgaGF2ZSBhIG5ldyB7em8nZX0gKGhlcmUgInh4eCIpLCB3ZSBjb3VsZCBlcXVhdGUge2xvIGJyb2RhIGN1IGJyb2RlfSB3aXRoIHticm9kZSB4eHggcG9pIGJyb2RhfSwgd2hlcmUgdGhlIHtwb2l9IG1ha2VzIHB1dHMgdGhlIHt4eHh9IGluIHRoZSByaWdodCBzbG90ICh7YnJvZGF9LCBub3Qge2Jyb2RlfSAtLSBvciwgYXQgbGVhc3QsIGJlZm9yZSB7YnJvZGV9KS4gIFRoaXMgYWxzbyBoYXMgdGhlIGFkdmFudGFnZSBvZiBnZXR0aW5nIGF3YXkgZnJvbSBtYWtpbmcgZGVzY3IBMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5349359c-f884-4976-a3e1-b0610eabeff6@googlegroups.com> <20140928013358.GB28734@gonzales> <20140928152915.GB7320@gonzales> <20141004141407.GG32481@gonzales> <20141005153531.GA1974@gonzales> <20141005214350.GC1974@gonzales> <5433F201.2020902@gmail.com> <5434EA6C.9090507@gmail.com> <1412802488.55250.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412861205.15295.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412871334.88429.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412904403.17231.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412944837.7070.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 05:40:37 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: <1412904403.17231.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.39.62.56 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="-204173969-336041517-1412944837=:7070" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- ---204173969-336041517-1412944837=:7070 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable So, assuming that we have a new {zo'e} (here "xxx"), we could equate {lo br= oda cu brode} with {brode xxx poi broda}, where the {poi} makes puts the {x= xx} in the right slot ({broda}, not {brode} -- or, at least, before {brode}= ). This also has the advantage of getting away from making descriptions as= sertive, as {noi} seems to do. Of course, it leaves the question of why th= is equation is of interest. To me, it seems more natural, if definitions a= re in order, to define {xxx broda} as {lo ka'e broda cu broda}, since {xxx}= seems a natural for a reductive definition and {lo} is clearly a primitive= of the underlying system. On Thursday, October 9, 2014 8:26 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: =20 Well, the history of {zo'e} shows that at one point it (or its predecessor)= did indeed say something like "the obvious one or we don't care which one"= , but that was consciously dropped for the present versin. Obviously, your= use of {zo'e} in the "definition" of {lo} relies on the first of those pos= sibilities (though probably "salient" rather than "obvious" would be to the= point). Alas, that is not what the current specification of {zo'e} is. N= ow would be a good time to change it (as should be done), but it is not cle= ar what hat change should be. The past usage is at least in three differen= t directions, with no obvious connection other than that we want to say tha= t we are not saying what the referent is (that is, choosing not to leave th= e place blank or use a short scope particular quantifier). As for the claim that sentences involving {zo'e} must be able to be false, = note that I just said they were and under what conditions. I suppose that = you mean something more, something like what you need for your "definition"= to become plausible, roughly that the referent is a salient object in the = context, thus cutting it free from reliance on {brode} in the formula. But= that is getting back to making it something best defined in terms of {lo},= the locus of saliency within Lojban. It also goes against the history of = {zo'e}, which is entirely in the context of filling places in predicates, f= unctioning in lieu of referring, not as an independent referring expression= . And, of course, the salience is within that context; we want to salient c= andidate for a particular place, whether or not its filling that space make= s for a true proposition. But this is a long way from {zo'e} now, which wa= s, admittedly, a long way from what it was probably meant to be. So, aside from wondering what the purpose of your definition is and noting = that the words used ({zo'e}, {noi}) are wrong, I suspect the intention is p= robably good. On Thursday, October 9, 2014 5:31 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: =20 On Thu, Oct 9, 2014 at 1:15 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban wrote: Okay, not exactly a tautology, but failing in a particularly questionable w= ay. That is, {zo'e brode} is false (or, at least, not true) just in case t= here are no brode, in which case {zo'e} is referentless, to the disgust of = Griceans and the puzzlement of logicians.=20 I don't think that's how "zo'e" works. Sentences with "zo'e" must be able t= o be false, otherwise sentences with "zo'e" are not very informative. Consider questions, for example. If someone asks "xu da zvati"? "Is anyone = at?" can the question be at all meaningful? It can only be meaningful if th= e zo'e in zvati2 can have a value, one obvious from context, possibly "here= " or whatever other relevant place we had been talking about. If we must un= derstand "zo'e" to mean "the value that makes the sentence true", then the = only answer we could truthfully give to that question is "go'i", but that w= ouldn't be at all informative to the questioner. Sure, there is almost cert= ainly a value for "zo'e" that will make "da zvati zo'e" true, but that's no= t what the questioner wants to know. The value of "zo'e" is a value obvious from context (or unimportant), but n= ot necessarily one that will make the sentence true. In most cases the sent= ence will be true, but not by virtue of the value of zo'e being determined = by that, but rather because in most cases assertions are true or at least i= ntended to be true.=20 mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. ---204173969-336041517-1412944837=:7070 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
So, assuming that we have a new {zo'e} (here "xxx"= ), we could equate {lo broda cu brode} with {brode xxx poi broda}, where th= e {poi} makes puts the {xxx} in the right slot ({broda}, not {brode} -- or,= at least, before {brode}).  This also has the advantage of getting aw= ay from making descriptions assertive, as {noi} seems to do.  Of cours= e, it leaves the question of why this equation is of interest.  To me,= it seems more natural, if definitions are in order, to define {xxx broda} = as {lo ka'e broda cu broda}, since {xxx} seems a natural for a reductive de= finition and {lo} is clearly a primitive of the underlying system.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 8:26 PM, = 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:


<= div style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Ne= ue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; font-size: 16px; backgr= ound-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
Well, t= he history of {zo'e} shows that at one point it (or its predecessor) did indeed say some= thing like "the obvious one or we don't care which one", but that was consc= iously dropped for the present versin.  Obviously, your use of {zo'e} = in the "definition" of {lo} relies on the first of those possibilities (tho= ugh probably "salient" rather than "obvious" would be to the point).  = Alas, that is not what the current specification of {zo'e} is.  Now wo= uld be a good time to change it (as should be done), but it is not clear what hat change shou= ld be.  The past usage is at least in three different directions, with= no obvious connection other than that we want to say that we are not sayin= g what the referent is (that is, choosing not to leave the place blank or use a short= scope particular quantifier).
As for the claim that sentence= s involving {zo'e} must be able to be false, note that I just said they wer= e and under what conditions.  I suppose that you mean something more, = something like what you need for your "definition" to become plausible, rou= ghly that the referent is a salient object in the context, thus cutting it = free from reliance on {brode} in the formula.  But that is getting bac= k to making it something best defined in terms of {lo}, the locus of salien= cy within Lojban.  It also goes against the history of {zo'e}, which is entirely in the context of filling places in predicates, functioning in lieu of referring, not as = an independent referring expression. And, of course, the salience is within= that context; we want to salient candidate for a particular place, whether= or not its filling that space makes for a true proposition.  But this= is a long way from {zo'e} now, which was, admittedly, a long way from what= it was probably meant to be.
So, aside from wondering= what the purpose of your definition is and noting that the words used ({zo= 'e}, {noi}) are wrong, I suspect the intention is probably good.


On Thursday, October 9, 2014 5:31 PM, Jorge Llamb=ED= as <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
<= br clear=3D"none">

<= div class=3D"yiv5043069124gmail_extra">
On Thu, Oct 9, 2014= at 1:15 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com= > wrote:
Okay, not exactly a tautology, bu= t failing in a particularly questionable way.  That is, {zo'e brode} i= s false (or, at least, not true) just in case there are no brod= e, in which case {zo'e} is referentless, to the disgust of Griceans and the= puzzlement of logicians.

I don't think that's how "zo'e" works. Sentences with "zo'e" must be = able to be false, otherwise sentences with "zo'e" are not very informative.=

Consider questions, for example. I= f someone asks "xu da zvati"? "Is anyone at?" can the question be at all me= aningful? It can only be meaningful if the zo'e in zvati2 can have a value,= one obvious from context, possibly "here" or whatever other relevant place= we had been talking about. If we must understand "zo'e" to mean "the value= that makes the sentence true", then the only answer we could truthfully gi= ve to that question is "go'i", but that wouldn't be at all informative to t= he questioner. Sure, there is almost certainly a value for "zo'e" that will= make "da zvati zo'e" true, but that's not what the questioner wants to kno= w.

The value of "zo'e" is a value obvious from context (or unimportant), but not necessarily one that will m= ake the sentence true. In most cases the sentence will be true, but not by = virtue of the value of zo'e being determined by that, but rather because in= most cases assertions are true or at least intended to be true. 
<= div>
mu'o mi'e xorxes

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