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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:33:45 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:40 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> So, assuming that we have a new {zo'e} (here "xxx"), we could equate {lo
> broda cu brode} with {brode xxx poi broda}, where the {poi} makes puts the
> {xxx} in the right slot ({broda}, not {brode} -- or, at least, before
> {brode}).
>

So xxx would refer to everything in the universe of discourse, and "poi
broda" is a restriction to just those things that satisfy "broda". Yes,
that would work too. At the cost of introducing a new KOhA that refers to
everything in the universe of discourse, of course.


> This also has the advantage of getting away from making descriptions
> assertive, as {noi} seems to do.  Of course, it leaves the question of why
> this equation is of interest.
>

The original reason for coming up with a paraphrase was probably something
like this: "lo" logically needs as an argument a proposition with (at least
one) free variable, which is bound by "lo". But syntactically "lo" only has
a sumti-tail as its dependent. and a sumti-tail is not flexible enough for
many purposes. For example, to show the underlying logical structure of "lo
mamta be re da" it is useful to be able to export the quantifier to a
prenex, which a sumti-tail does not provide. There are different
workarounds to this limitation. One is to introduce the new cmavo "poi'i",
which converts a bridi, with a marked free variable, into a selbri which is
just what we need for a sumti-tail, now we can rewrite "lo mamta be re da"
as "lo poi'i re da zo'u ke'a mamta da". "xxx poi" would also serve: "xxx
poi re da zo'u ke'a mamta da", and "zo'e noi" also serves the same purpose.
The main and probably only advantage of "zo'e noi" over the other two is
that it doesn't use any unofficial cmavo.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:40 AM, &#39;John E Clifford&#39; via lojban <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gm=
ail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-le=
ft:1ex"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Hel=
veticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-siz=
e:16px"><div><span>So, assuming that we have a new {zo&#39;e} (here &quot;x=
xx&quot;), we could equate {lo broda cu brode} with {brode xxx poi broda}, =
where the {poi} makes puts the {xxx} in the right slot ({broda}, not {brode=
} -- or, at least, before {brode}). =C2=A0</span></div></div></div></blockq=
uote><div><br></div><div>So xxx would refer to everything in the universe o=
f discourse, and &quot;poi broda&quot; is a restriction to just those thing=
s that satisfy &quot;broda&quot;. Yes, that would work too. At the cost of =
introducing a new KOhA that refers to everything in the universe of discour=
se, of course.=C2=A0</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><=
div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeu=
e,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><=
div><span>This also has the advantage of getting away from making descripti=
ons assertive, as {noi} seems to do.=C2=A0 Of course, it leaves the questio=
n of why this equation is of interest. =C2=A0</span></div></div></div></blo=
ckquote><div><br></div><div>The original reason for coming up with a paraph=
rase was probably something like this: &quot;lo&quot; logically needs as an=
 argument a proposition with (at least one) free variable, which is bound b=
y &quot;lo&quot;. But syntactically &quot;lo&quot; only has a sumti-tail as=
 its dependent. and a sumti-tail is not flexible enough for many purposes. =
For example, to show the underlying logical structure of &quot;lo mamta be =
re da&quot; it is useful to be able to export the quantifier to a prenex, w=
hich a sumti-tail does not provide. There are different workarounds to this=
 limitation. One is to introduce the new cmavo &quot;poi&#39;i&quot;, which=
 converts a bridi, with a marked free variable, into a selbri which is just=
 what we need for a sumti-tail, now we can rewrite &quot;lo mamta be re da&=
quot; as &quot;lo poi&#39;i re da zo&#39;u ke&#39;a mamta da&quot;. &quot;x=
xx poi&quot; would also serve: &quot;xxx poi re da zo&#39;u ke&#39;a mamta =
da&quot;, and &quot;zo&#39;e noi&quot; also serves the same purpose. The ma=
in and probably only advantage of &quot;zo&#39;e noi&quot; over the other t=
wo is that it doesn&#39;t use any unofficial cmavo.</div><div><br></div><di=
v>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div>=C2=A0<br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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