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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
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From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:26:22 -0500
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Well, no.  {xxx}, like {zo'e}, picks something that go in a particular plac=
e in particular predicate, this time the salient possibility, not just one =
that makes the bridi true.  The {poi} clause provides, as always, the relev=
ant predicate place.  The plan, of course, is not really to introduce a new=
 term, but rectify the definition of {zo'e}.

The rest seem fairly wormrunnerish.  What purpose do you have inm mind that=
 requires a shift of quantifiers to prenex?  Why can't They be pulled it of=
 sumti tails (whatever they may be)?  The underlying structure of {lo manta=
 be re da} is lx2yMxy.  Insofar as that is not reflected in Lojban-- which =
doesn't seem very far, Lojban has moved away from logic.  Now, what theolog=
ical situation is in terms of pulling that quantifier out of the tem and up=
 to the propositional level needs to be worked out in the logic and might w=
ell also need some rules in the grammar, but that doesn't seem to be what y=
ou are about, since you stay at the level of terms but give ever farther fr=
om the simple form. =20

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 10, 2014, at 16:33, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote=
:

>=20
> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:40 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@goo=
glegroups.com> wrote:
> So, assuming that we have a new {zo'e} (here "xxx"), we could equate {lo =
broda cu brode} with {brode xxx poi broda}, where the {poi} makes puts the =
{xxx} in the right slot ({broda}, not {brode} -- or, at least, before {brod=
e}). =20
>=20
> So xxx would refer to everything in the universe of discourse, and "poi b=
roda" is a restriction to just those things that satisfy "broda". Yes, that=
 would work too. At the cost of introducing a new KOhA that refers to every=
thing in the universe of discourse, of course.=20
>  E=20
> This also has the advantage of getting away from making descriptions asse=
rtive, as {noi} seems to do.  Of course, it leaves the question of why this=
 equation is of interest.  E redicate
>=20
> The original reason for coming up with a paraphrase was probably essometh=
ing like this: "lo" they be pulled out oflogically needs as an argument a p=
roposition ed out of sumti tails with (at least one) free variable, which i=
s bound by "lo". But syntactically "lo" only has a sumti-tail as its depend=
ent. and a sumti-tail is not flexible enough for many purposes. For example=
, to show the underlying logical structurex of "lo mamta be re da" it is us=
eful to be able to export the quantifier to a prenex, which a sumti-tail do=
es not provide. There are different workarounds to this limitation. One is =
to introduce the new cmavo "poi'i", which converts a bridi, with a marked f=
ree variable, into a selbri which is just what we need for a sumti-tail, no=
w we can rewrite "lo mamta be re da" as "lo poi'i re da zo'u ke'a mamta da"=
. "xxx poi" would also serve: "xxx poi re da zo'u ke'a mamta da", and "zo'e=
 noi" also serves the same purpose. The main and probably only advantage of=
 "zo'e noi" over the other two is that it doesn't use any unofficial cmavo.
>=20
> mu'o mi'e xorxes
> =20
> --=20
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<html><head></head><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Well, no. &nbsp;{xxx}, li=
ke {zo'e}, picks something that go in a particular place in particular pred=
icate, this time the salient possibility, not just one that makes the bridi=
 true. &nbsp;The {poi} clause provides, as always, the relevant predicate p=
lace. &nbsp;The plan, of course, is not really to introduce a new term, but=
 rectify the definition of {zo'e}.</div><div><br></div><div>The rest seem f=
airly wormrunnerish. &nbsp;What purpose do you have inm mind that requires =
a shift of quantifiers to prenex? &nbsp;Why can't They be pulled it of sumt=
i tails (whatever they may be)? &nbsp;The underlying structure of {lo manta=
 be re da} is lx2yMxy. &nbsp;Insofar as that is not reflected in Lojban-- w=
hich doesn't seem very far, Lojban has moved away from logic. &nbsp;Now, wh=
at theological situation is in terms of pulling that quantifier out of the =
tem and up to the propositional level needs to be worked out in the logic a=
nd might well also need some rules in the grammar, but that doesn't seem to=
 be what you are about, since you stay at the level of terms but give ever =
farther from the simple form. &nbsp;</div><div><br></div><div>Sent from my =
iPad</div><div><br>On Oct 10, 2014, at 16:33, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &lt;<a hr=
ef=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambias@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><=
br></div><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div cl=
ass=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at =
9:40 AM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:lojban@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&g=
t;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style=3D"color=
:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvet=
ica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div><span>So, assuming =
that we have a new {zo'e} (here "xxx"), we could equate {lo broda cu brode}=
 with {brode xxx poi broda}, where the {poi} makes puts the {xxx} in the ri=
ght slot ({broda}, not {brode} -- or, at least, before {brode}). &nbsp;</sp=
an></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>So xxx would refer to=
 everything in the universe of discourse, and "poi broda" is a restriction =
to just those things that satisfy "broda". Yes, that would work too. At the=
 cost of introducing a new KOhA that refers to everything in the universe o=
f discourse, of course.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;E&nbsp;</div></div></div></di=
v></div></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div dir=3D"ltr"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_=
quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1=
ex"><div><div style=3D"color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:Helveti=
caNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16=
px"><div><span>This also has the advantage of getting away from making desc=
riptions assertive, as {noi} seems to do.&nbsp; Of course, it leaves the qu=
estion of why this equation is of interest. &nbsp;E redicate</span></div></=
div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The original reason for coming u=
p with a paraphrase was probably essomething like this: "lo" they be pulled=
 out oflogically needs as an argument a proposition ed out of sumti tails w=
ith (at least one) free variable, which is bound by "lo". But syntactically=
 "lo" only has a sumti-tail as its dependent. and a sumti-tail is not flexi=
ble enough for many purposes. For example, to show the underlying logical s=
tructurex of "lo mamta be re da" it is useful to be able to export the quan=
tifier to a prenex, which a sumti-tail does not provide. There are differen=
t workarounds to this limitation. One is to introduce the new cmavo "poi'i"=
, which converts a bridi, with a marked free variable, into a selbri which =
is just what we need for a sumti-tail, now we can rewrite "lo mamta be re d=
a" as "lo poi'i re da zo'u ke'a mamta da". "xxx poi" would also serve: "xxx=
 poi re da zo'u ke'a mamta da", and "zo'e noi" also serves the same purpose=
. The main and probably only advantage of "zo'e noi" over the other two is =
that it doesn't use any unofficial cmavo.</div><div><br></div><div>mu'o mi'=
e xorxes</div><div>&nbsp;<br></div></div></div></div>

<p></p>

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</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

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