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Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 21:09:33 -0300
Message-ID: <CAO7tK2fet=nnbhWySwdhjFW6kqQz0_K6Gem8iVT6v8FEUeNdZA@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:26 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <
lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Well, no.  {xxx}, like {zo'e}, picks something that go in a particular
> place in particular predicate, this time the salient possibility, not just
> one that makes the bridi true.  The {poi} clause provides, as always, the
> relevant predicate place.  The plan, of course, is not really to introduce
> a new term, but rectify the definition of {zo'e}.
>

As I understand, "poi" when attached to a referring expression selects from
among the referents of the referring expression just those that satisfy the
poi-clause, so "ko'a poi broda" selects from the referents of ko'a, those
that satisfy broda.  So for example "ti poi toldi" means "those among these
that are butterflies" and not "these things, which I'm telling you are
butterflies so as to help you identify what I mean".

The rest seem fairly wormrunnerish.  What purpose do you have inm mind that
> requires a shift of quantifiers to prenex?  Why can't They be pulled it of
> sumti tails (whatever they may be)?
>

The syntax of Lojban doesn't allow it.


>  The underlying structure of {lo manta be re da} is lx2yMxy.
>

Right. In the open proposition "2yMxy" you basicaly have 2y in the prenex.


>  Insofar as that is not reflected in Lojban-- which doesn't seem very far,
> Lojban has moved away from logic.
>

Lojban doesn't have anything that corresponds (syntactically) to the
quantifier "lx". There is no PA that corresponds to "l" and "lo da" is not
a quantifier.


>  Now, what theological situation is in terms of pulling that quantifier
> out of the tem and up to the propositional level needs to be worked out in
> the logic and might well also need some rules in the grammar, but that
> doesn't seem to be what you are about, since you stay at the level of terms
> but give ever farther from the simple form.
>

Moving a quantifier term to the prenex is what most effectively reflects
standard FOPL notation:

Ax Ey Bxy
ro da zo'u su'o de zo'u broda fa da de

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><br>=
</div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:26 PM, &#39;John=
 E. Clifford&#39; via lojban <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:lojban=
@googlegroups.com" target=3D"_blank">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>&gt;</span>=
 wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.=
8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-st=
yle:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Well, no. =C2=A0{=
xxx}, like {zo&#39;e}, picks something that go in a particular place in par=
ticular predicate, this time the salient possibility, not just one that mak=
es the bridi true.=C2=A0 The {poi} clause provides, as always, the relevant=
 predicate place.=C2=A0 The plan, of course, is not really to introduce a n=
ew term, but rectify the definition of {zo&#39;e}.</div></div></blockquote>=
<div><br></div><div>As I understand, &quot;poi&quot; when attached to a ref=
erring expression selects from among the referents of the referring express=
ion just those that satisfy the poi-clause, so &quot;ko&#39;a poi broda&quo=
t; selects from the referents of ko&#39;a, those that satisfy broda.=C2=A0 =
So for example &quot;ti poi toldi&quot; means &quot;those among these that =
are butterflies&quot; and not &quot;these things, which I&#39;m telling you=
 are butterflies so as to help you identify what I mean&quot;. =C2=A0</div>=
<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0p=
x 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-lef=
t-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>The rest seem=
 fairly wormrunnerish.=C2=A0 What purpose do you have inm mind that require=
s a shift of quantifiers to prenex?=C2=A0 Why can&#39;t They be pulled it o=
f sumti tails (whatever they may be)? </div></div></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div>The syntax of Lojban doesn&#39;t allow it.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><b=
lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le=
ft-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>=C2=A0The underlying structure=
 of {lo manta be re da} is lx2yMxy. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
><div>Right. In the open proposition &quot;2yMxy&quot; you basicaly have 2y=
 in the prenex.</div><div>=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(=
204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFF=
FFF"><div>=C2=A0Insofar as that is not reflected in Lojban-- which doesn=
9;t seem very far, Lojban has moved away from logic. </div></div></blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div>Lojban doesn&#39;t have anything that corresponds (s=
yntactically) to the quantifier &quot;lx&quot;. There is no PA that corresp=
onds to &quot;l&quot; and &quot;lo da&quot; is not a quantifier.</div><div>=
=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0=
.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-s=
tyle:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>=C2=A0Now, what =
theological situation is in terms of pulling that quantifier out of the tem=
 and up to the propositional level needs to be worked out in the logic and =
might well also need some rules in the grammar, but that doesn&#39;t seem t=
o be what you are about, since you stay at the level of terms but give ever=
 farther from the simple form. =C2=A0</div></div></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>Moving a quantifier term to the prenex is what most effectively refl=
ects standard FOPL notation:=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Ax Ey Bxy<br></=
div><div>ro da zo&#39;u su&#39;o de zo&#39;u broda fa da de</div><div><br><=
/div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes<br></div><div><br></div></div></div></di=
v>

<p></p>

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