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[216.109.114.208]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id im4si617419qcb.1.2014.10.10.17.43.09 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:43:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.208 as permitted sender) client-ip=216.109.114.208; Received: from [66.196.81.159] by nm10.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 00:43:08 -0000 Received: from [66.196.81.130] by tm5.access.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 00:43:08 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1006.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 00:43:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 804034.90562.bm@omp1006.access.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 52988 invoked by uid 60001); 11 Oct 2014 00:43:08 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: RBrj9oIVM1lc0Bbr9dySAWaTkLFUVbMlfy4AjQQacXIt9mi .4FkCdH_c3AnpmfohQ8kf4Vms2JWSe4V5thv7NpHhywOvh6z_q0LaiHIz9wX dsxAmWHmnuitDSmpFld9fSuVrVjMNlhw4d83TZHO8N2CtxMIqDC0DU4Gopyg xU_tWPBNgzzIaRzeUKxkhLzCckuz8ZK4bNPxgR63DopTmB1iB5LH2Gx2PKkg 69g6qFEYyOA9B1pWG3D19Hsk2pDBZLTT4osYJZm0wGcukTL8GqlVFAUkLIFv p5ucU47.VR7ELlbD3XH6X3Li3YJCBvAu3FJO6tPeCiD8x3CnPbQHGhO9PXB0 .2Wn6ODdg00Azn9VxO.6GTRZTo9f9NdUDZILzPUhooMzatakiwSFT454jWsl bDfktpOZEkZ2STS1fUcdg61IJk_cM2ZQr6PSETIZxwwNGqrmprjKLAx3Ub3Z 7yyPz4IVzCZdLw3HNJW.5q3CAghU10eK8H922KLABzDQj7hINVMeXU1YS_KV xF9C7GkTtG2LBiUqc9pw8Zq.8QOZim9zv7OWIy2NEbMeGhBObirxrcRcFLPj X.oxCDTEE2BG53uKHOP9U.okLQIvLdsFJZZPCM_90lCe8xILgDJzrcj8yQ0j X3GhQUiRfEEt0IOYU2kUXnJtN9d.zfBYRSbdEvc8Mwm53kHQZNxfh78GyL1g 5A1q4J18eu02jGu5rk3L6iI8qp3xi0NCnc4lhcsu6 Received: from [99.92.109.82] by web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:43:08 PDT X-Rocket-MIMEInfo: 002.001,T0ssIHB1dCB0aSB0aGF0IHdheS4gIFRoZW4ge3h4eCBwb2kgYnJvZGF9IHNlbGVjdHMgZnJvbSB0aGUgc2FsaWVudCBmZWF0dXJlcyBvZiB0aGUgc2l0dWF0aW9uIHRoZSBvbmVzIHRoYXQgYnJvZGEsIHRob3VnaCBJIGRvIHRobmsgdGhhdCBpcyBiYWNrd2FyZHMgb2Ygd2hhdCByZWFsbHkgZ29lcyBvbiBhbmQgdGhhdCB0aGUgcHJvY2VzcyBpcyBjbG9zZXIgdG8gdGhhdCBmb3Ige2RhIHBvaSBicm9kYX0sIHRha2luZyB0aGUgYnJvZGFzIGFuZCBsb29raW5nIGZvciB0aGUgc2FsaWVudCBvbmUuIHRoZSBjb24BMAEBAQE- X-Mailer: YahooMailWebService/0.8.203.696 References: <5349359c-f884-4976-a3e1-b0610eabeff6@googlegroups.com> <20140928013358.GB28734@gonzales> <20140928152915.GB7320@gonzales> <20141004141407.GG32481@gonzales> <20141005153531.GA1974@gonzales> <20141005214350.GC1974@gonzales> <5433F201.2020902@gmail.com> <5434EA6C.9090507@gmail.com> <1412802488.55250.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412861205.15295.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412871334.88429.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412904403.17231.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412944837.7070.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1412988188.73626.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:43:08 -0700 From: "'John E Clifford' via lojban" Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 216.109.114.208 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: John E Clifford Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="564456775-1789195196-1412988188=:73626" X-Spam-Score: -2.0 (--) X-Spam_score: -2.0 X-Spam_score_int: -19 X-Spam_bar: -- --564456775-1789195196-1412988188=:73626 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK, put ti that way. Then {xxx poi broda} selects from the salient feature= s of the situation the ones that broda, though I do thnk that is backwards = of what really goes on and that the process is closer to that for {da poi b= roda}, taking the brodas and looking for the salient one. the contrast with= {noi} applies in any case. The syntax of Lojban doesn't allow any transformation, since it is entirely= static (whether PEG or YACC). So I suppose that you mean that {re da lo= mamta be da} is not a term in Lojban. Nor should it be, since "2y lxMxy" = is not a term in logic. But why would you want it to be? The answer is th= at you don't, as your further steps show. You just want "lx2yMxy" which yo= u have already in {lo mamta be re da} by perfectly general rules already in= place (quantifiers go to shortest scope with copy variable in original pla= ce, descriptor goes to descriptor +var with a copy variable in first place = of predicate). The rules get complicated later, but not here. So, until I= see some markedly more complicated cases, I don't see wtf you are all abou= t. The whole point of much of the deviation of Lojban from logical notatio= n is to make an ergonomic (yuck, ptui!) language while keeping a connection= to the logic. Why deliberately go after the antiergonomic "standard form" when you have a good representation already, There are pr= oblems with Lojban's representations of standard form, but the solution is = to find better ergonomic treatments, not to give up and go back to the unus= able originals. "l" is not a quantifier but an operator for converting an open formula into= a term and Lojban has at least one of those, namely {lo}, which "l" repres= ents. This is basic logic stuff; where is the problem? On Friday, October 10, 2014 7:09 PM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: =20 On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:26 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban wrote: Well, no. {xxx}, like {zo'e}, picks something that go in a particular plac= e in particular predicate, this time the salient possibility, not just one = that makes the bridi true. The {poi} clause provides, as always, the relev= ant predicate place. The plan, of course, is not really to introduce a new= term, but rectify the definition of {zo'e}. As I understand, "poi" when attached to a referring expression selects from= among the referents of the referring expression just those that satisfy th= e poi-clause, so "ko'a poi broda" selects from the referents of ko'a, those= that satisfy broda. So for example "ti poi toldi" means "those among thes= e that are butterflies" and not "these things, which I'm telling you are bu= tterflies so as to help you identify what I mean". =20 The rest seem fairly wormrunnerish. What purpose do you have inm mind that= requires a shift of quantifiers to prenex? Why can't They be pulled it of= sumti tails (whatever they may be)?=20 The syntax of Lojban doesn't allow it. =20 The underlying structure of {lo manta be re da} is lx2yMxy.=20 Right. In the open proposition "2yMxy" you basicaly have 2y in the prenex. =20 Insofar as that is not reflected in Lojban-- which doesn't seem very far, = Lojban has moved away from logic.=20 Lojban doesn't have anything that corresponds (syntactically) to the quanti= fier "lx". There is no PA that corresponds to "l" and "lo da" is not a quan= tifier. =20 Now, what theological situation is in terms of pulling that quantifier out= of the tem and up to the propositional level needs to be worked out in the= logic and might well also need some rules in the grammar, but that doesn't= seem to be what you are about, since you stay at the level of terms but gi= ve ever farther from the simple form. =20 Moving a quantifier term to the prenex is what most effectively reflects st= andard FOPL notation:=20 Ax Ey Bxy ro da zo'u su'o de zo'u broda fa da de mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --564456775-1789195196-1412988188=:73626 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
OK, put ti that way.  Then {xxx poi broda} se= lects from the salient features of the situation the ones that broda, thoug= h I do thnk that is backwards of what really goes on and that the process i= s closer to that for {da poi broda}, taking the brodas and looking for the = salient one. the contrast with {noi} applies in any case.

The syntax of Lojban doesn't allow any transformation, since it is entirely static (whether PEG or YACC= ).  So I suppose that  you mean that  {re da lo mamta be da}= is not a term in Lojban.  Nor should it be, since "2y lxMxy" is not a= term in logic.  But why would you want it to be?  The answer is = that you don't, as your further steps show.  You just want "lx2yMxy" w= hich you have already in {lo mamta be re da} by perfectly general rules alr= eady in place (quantifiers go to shortest scope with copy variable in origi= nal place, descriptor goes to descriptor +var with a copy variable in first= place of predicate).  The rules get complicated later, but not here. =  So, until I see some markedly more complicated cases, I don't see wtf= you are all about.  The whole point of much of the deviation of Lojba= n from logical notation is to make an ergonomic (yuck, ptui!) language whil= e keeping a connection to the logic.  Why deliberately go after the antiergonomic "standard form" when you have a good representation alre= ady,  There are problems with Lojban's representations of standard for= m, but the solution is to find better ergonomic treatments, not to give up = and go back to the unusable originals.

"l" is not a quantifier but an operator for converting an= open formula into a term and Lojban has at least one of those, namely {lo}= , which "l" represents. This is basic logic stuff; where is the problem?


On Friday, October 10, 2014 7:09 PM, Jorge L= lamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:


=

O= n Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:26 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <lojba= n@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Well,= no.  {xxx}, like {zo'e}, picks something that go in a particular plac= e in particular predicate, this time the salient possibility, not just one = that makes the bridi true.  The {poi} clause provides, as always, the = relevant predicate place.  The plan, of course, is not really to intro= duce a new term, but rectify the definition of {zo'e}.

As I understand, "poi" when attached= to a referring expression selects from among the referents of the referrin= g expression just those that satisfy the poi-clause, so "ko'a poi broda" se= lects from the referents of ko'a, those that satisfy broda.  So for ex= ample "ti poi toldi" means "those among these that are butterflies" and not= "these things, which I'm telling you are butterflies so as to help you identify what I mean".  

The rest seem fairly wormrunnerish.  W= hat purpose do you have inm mind that requires a shift of quantifiers to pr= enex?  Why can't They be pulled it of sumti tails (whatever they may b= e)?

The syntax = of Lojban doesn't allow it.
 
 The underlying structure of {lo manta be re da} is lx= 2yMxy.

Right. I= n the open proposition "2yMxy" you basicaly have 2y in the prenex.
 
&nb= sp;Insofar as that is not reflected in Lojban-- which doesn't seem very far= , Lojban has moved away from logic.

Lojban doesn't have anything that corresponds (syntact= ically) to the quantifier "lx". There is no PA that corresponds to "l" and = "lo da" is not a quantifier.
 
 Now, what theological situation is in terms of pulli= ng that quantifier out of the tem and up to the propositional level needs t= o be worked out in the logic and might well also need some rules in the grammar, but that doesn't seem to be what you are about, since you stay at= the level of terms but give ever farther from the simple form.  

Moving a quantifier = term to the prenex is what most effectively reflects standard FOPL notation= : 

Ax Ey Bxy
ro da zo'u su'o de zo'u broda fa da de

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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