Received: from mail-ee0-f57.google.com ([74.125.83.57]:40618) by stodi.digitalkingdom.org with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.80.1) (envelope-from ) id 1XcujI-0000xl-QH for lojban-list-archive@lojban.org; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:21:04 -0700 Received: by mail-ee0-f57.google.com with SMTP id c41sf479351eek.22 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20120806; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=XXQBQBwKKNplghaj/djJbr4AAkAaUZ/slAwRQfh7DFo=; b=PZeQy+IQx33N1vTiDGjxRUKNi5mhIOAJhlpYIcfkxxGy+gxm39s9837TbCqNv40OzH Q5tWWtT66vJ+bw96AA87TirCj7Z3Vdd40e3BVRmGxpzXQ0uxPuqcK/FM2BKEdVAfCUcI xK9tU2SYPsQJjV/Zr2jLBnwzKN8PMmmnA1nPU13ikviFTdKOVis65KJXA/QbmzHsTqac 5zy5ru68A3+T4vQVKt6A0qKb1THNCtmC7sfsQh4pxqlwWl1gILB3AhwnPEOx3Z35asQ1 eP+E2L1sU16LvP3RS3R99R2vwZzV0/wLNo+l03BooC7hGeFcUR/zu8dO8Ud9IJ5PS2jj Lrog== X-Received: by 10.152.28.41 with SMTP id y9mr150892lag.2.1413026449804; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:20:49 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.152.9.168 with SMTP id a8ls342418lab.55.gmail; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.152.2.97 with SMTP id 1mr252676lat.6.1413026448407; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lb0-x22f.google.com (mail-lb0-x22f.google.com [2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id us10si64657lbc.1.2014.10.11.04.20.48 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f; Received: by mail-lb0-f175.google.com with SMTP id u10so4338057lbd.6 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.112.14.199 with SMTP id r7mr10603032lbc.58.1413026448304; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:20:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.61.107 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 04:20:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1412988188.73626.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5349359c-f884-4976-a3e1-b0610eabeff6@googlegroups.com> <20140928013358.GB28734@gonzales> <20140928152915.GB7320@gonzales> <20141004141407.GG32481@gonzales> <20141005153531.GA1974@gonzales> <20141005214350.GC1974@gonzales> <5433F201.2020902@gmail.com> <5434EA6C.9090507@gmail.com> <1412802488.55250.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412861205.15295.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412871334.88429.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412904403.17231.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412944837.7070.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412988188.73626.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 08:20:47 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4010:c04::22f as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11332fee8270a5050523db4e X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11332fee8270a5050523db4e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:43 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban < lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > The syntax of Lojban doesn't allow any transformation, since it is > entirely static (whether PEG or YACC). So I suppose that you mean that > {re da lo mamta be da} is not a term in Lojban. > I mean that the logical form of "lo mamta be re da cu cliva" is not as obvious from the syntactic form as the logical form of, on the one hand: (1a) lo poi'i re da zo'u ke'a mamta da cu cliva (1b) xxx poi re da zo'u ke'a mamta da cu cliva (1c) zo'e noi re da zo'u ke'a mamta da cu cliva and on the other hand: (2a) re da zo'u lo poi'i ke'a mamta da cu cliva (2b) re da zo'u xxx poi ke'a mamta da cu cliva (2c) re da zo'u zo'e noi ke'a mamta da cu cliva We need to state explicitly in the rules for interpreting the language that "lo mamta be re da cu cliva" corresponds to the 1's and not to the 2's. To anyone familiar with FOPL, the rules for interpreting the 1's and 2's are more obvious and straightforward just from the syntactic form in a way that they are not so obvious in the condensed form. > The whole point of much of the deviation of Lojban from logical notation > is to make an ergonomic (yuck, ptui!) language while keeping a connection > to the logic. Why deliberately go after the antiergonomic "standard form" > when you have a good representation already, > The sumti-tail form requires fronting the argument place for the variable bound by "lo". It is not always possible or convenient to do that. For example: lo poi'i mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki xxx poi mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki zo'e noi mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki "That which I think John knows is possible." > There are problems with Lojban's representations of standard form, but the > solution is to find better ergonomic treatments, not to give up and go back > to the unusable originals. > If you think anyone is suggesting giving up on the ergonomic forms, you are misreading what this thread is all about. mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11332fee8270a5050523db4e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

= On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 9:43 PM, 'John E Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
<= span>
T= he syntax of Lojban doesn't allow any transformation, since it is entirely static (whether PEG or YACC= ).=C2=A0 So I suppose that =C2=A0you mean that =C2=A0{re da lo mamta be da}= is not a term in Lojban. =C2=A0
=
I mean that the logical form of =C2=A0"lo mamta be re d= a cu cliva" is not as obvious from the syntactic form as the logical f= orm of, on the one hand:

(1a) lo poi'i re da z= o'u ke'a mamta da cu cliva
(1b) xxx poi re da zo'u ke= 'a mamta da =C2=A0cu cliva
(1c) zo'e noi re da zo'u k= e'a mamta da cu cliva

and on the other hand:

(2a) re da zo'u lo poi'i ke'a mamt= a da cu cliva
(2b) re da zo'u xxx poi ke'a mamta da =C2= =A0cu cliva
(2c) re da zo'u zo'e noi ke'a mamta da cu= cliva

We need to state explicitly in the ru= les for interpreting the language that "lo mamta be re da cu cliva&quo= t; corresponds to the 1's and not to the 2's. To anyone familiar wi= th FOPL, the rules for interpreting the 1's =C2=A0and 2's are more = obvious and straightforward just from the syntactic form in a way that they= are not so obvious in the condensed form.

=C2=A0<= br>
The whole point of much of the de= viation of Lojban from logical notation is to make an ergonomic (yuck, ptui= !) language while keeping a connection to the logic.=C2=A0 Why deliberately= go after the antiergonomic "standard form" when you have a good represent= ation already, =C2=A0

<= div>The sumti-tail form requires fronting the argument place for the variab= le bound by "lo". It is not always possible or convenient to do t= hat. For example:

=C2=A0 lo poi'i mi jinvi lo = du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki
=C2=A0 xxx p= oi mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki
=C2=A0 zo'e noi mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'= u ke'a cumki
=C2=A0 "That which I think John knows i= s possible."=C2=A0

=C2=A0
There are problems with Lojban's representations = of standard form, but the solution is to find better ergonomic treatments, = not to give up and go back to the unusable originals.

If you think anyone is suggesting givin= g up on the ergonomic forms, you are misreading what this thread is all abo= ut.=C2=A0

mu'o mi'e xorxes

<= /div>

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