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Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 08:58:36 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

> * Friday, 2014-10-10 at 22:03 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gma=
il.com
> >:
>
> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
> >
> > The need for opaque contexts was the main reason for "tu'a" to exist, s=
o
> > you could say "mi nitcu tu'a su'o mikce" without claiming that there's =
a
> > doctor such that you need them.
>
> I see. Just to check - there's no corresponding special behaviour for
> {jai}, right?
>     ro da jai broda
>     -> ro da zo'u tu'a da broda
> ?
>

Right, "jai" raises an argument place out of a subordinate clause up to the
main clause, while "tu'a" buries its argument into a subordinate clause.
But "jai" deals with argument places, while "tu'a" deals with arguments.


> Argh. Then yes, it looks like {tu'a} is in LAhE only syntactically, not
> semantically, and must be handled separately.
>

For non-condensed forms (by "condensed form" I mean those forms that use a
bridi operator in an argument position) "tu'a" behaves like the other
LAhEs. It's the condensed forms that need special treatment, because "tu'a"
introduces an additional level of subordinate clause.

(So then tu'a needing opacity is no longer an argument that the rest of
> LAhE should get it...)
>

Well...


But a concrete test question to narrow things down:
>
> is {lo broda ku du lo broda} always true for all broda, as long as we
> ignore any possible issues about unfilled places and/or variable vague
> tenses etc?
>

I would most likely interpret it as true (emphasis on "interpret"). I don't
think it's a syntactic rule though, but then again maybe that's just
because it's so hard to abstract away from unfilled places, tenses, etc.

Similarly, is
>     lo bakni ku catlu gi'e damba
>     <=3D> lo bakni ku catlu i je lo bakni ku damba
> legitimate (under the same assumptions)?
>

I would say no, but again that may be only because those assumptions may
never be actually fulfilled.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Martin Bays <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=
=3D"mailto:mbays@sdf.org" target=3D"_blank">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border=
-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">* Friday, 2014-10-10 at 22:03 -0300 =
- Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jjllambias@gmail.com">jjllambia=
s@gmail.com</a>&gt;:<br>
<span class=3D""><br>
&gt; On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 8:40 PM, Martin Bays &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:mba=
ys@sdf.org">mbays@sdf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
</span><span class=3D"">&gt; The need for opaque contexts was the main reas=
on for &quot;tu&#39;a&quot; to exist, so<br>
&gt; you could say &quot;mi nitcu tu&#39;a su&#39;o mikce&quot; without cla=
iming that there&#39;s a<br>
&gt; doctor such that you need them.<br>
<br>
</span>I see. Just to check - there&#39;s no corresponding special behaviou=
r for<br>
{jai}, right?<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 ro da jai broda<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 -&gt; ro da zo&#39;u tu&#39;a da broda<br>
<span class=3D"">?<br></span></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Right, &quot;=
jai&quot; raises an argument place out of a subordinate clause up to the ma=
in clause, while &quot;tu&#39;a&quot; buries its argument into a subordinat=
e clause. But &quot;jai&quot; deals with argument places, while &quot;tu=
9;a&quot; deals with arguments.</div><div><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div><block=
quote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc=
 solid;padding-left:1ex"><span class=3D"">
</span>Argh. Then yes, it looks like {tu&#39;a} is in LAhE only syntactical=
ly, not<br>
semantically, and must be handled separately.<br></blockquote><div><br></di=
v><div>For non-condensed forms (by &quot;condensed form&quot; I mean those =
forms that use a bridi operator in an argument position) &quot;tu&#39;a&quo=
t; behaves like the other LAhEs. It&#39;s the condensed forms that need spe=
cial treatment, because &quot;tu&#39;a&quot; introduces an additional level=
 of subordinate clause.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmai=
l_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left=
:1ex">
(So then tu&#39;a needing opacity is no longer an argument that the rest of=
<br>
LAhE should get it...)<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Well...</div><di=
v><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"=
 style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
But a concrete test question to narrow things down:<br>
<br>
is {lo broda ku du lo broda} always true for all broda, as long as we<br>
ignore any possible issues about unfilled places and/or variable vague<br>
tenses etc?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would most likely interpr=
et it as true (emphasis on &quot;interpret&quot;). I don&#39;t think it&#39=
;s a syntactic rule though, but then again maybe that&#39;s just because it=
&#39;s so hard to abstract away from unfilled places, tenses, etc. =C2=A0</=
div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 =
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Similarly, is<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 lo bakni ku catlu gi&#39;e damba<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 &lt;=3D&gt; lo bakni ku catlu i je lo bakni ku damba<br>
legitimate (under the same assumptions)?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><di=
v>I would say no, but again that may be only because those assumptions may =
never be actually fulfilled.</div><div><br></div></div></div><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra">mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><=
/div></div>

<p></p>

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