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[98.138.91.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gy6si849453igb.1.2014.10.11.08.22.09 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Oct 2014 08:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.53; Received: from [98.138.100.114] by nm3.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 15:22:09 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.37] by tm105.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 15:22:09 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 15:22:08 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 985994.5298.bm@smtp105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: v0Tuj0kVM1lcZRKFhzNs9SPtBt.L2q2.zDQPCq.5MZlgEew ifySiEDn70I5dVCRBjICSLSVK.9sR8FRIXn50tpQDfGpXlWTRYyI3F4g0Vfq iuQ71R6h_ktVhlNlVW2v94W_kYaa84zsdNuPaXWHRDlGDJpG3n6NLenvNbzU n9LhyKhWZhG2jzsQsT9WK_82ck0rQLk8hBwlHgjLaJGnbSSS57RQLyELeyZw .wFsSWOXdq43b0Mh32B_MMSDZxVaL5DPQo.J0H7aS_EnAzsaGvxfs9G.yNXO wLkPbIFKp.YtfMrnD9LGXofbt7MQB3Sd31zf4lYjoK9Q69f29Za9gkLOPKxi eMFcHSEI3OaNmkugmRP_MKS0PaG3QpCaadJMaSUoolpGJiyTq3AaLh07HLD3 g79WnV0niEje3M8eOa8uqq5cKkQhTrKFpsMLt9KP_.gF0HnYGEvWfAdaq0Uj pHlQGUy6g9pT3PtJ9mtq4tuWP9Z6vPOynugRj324zjXWl.Q59Jsdx9eOaSaS jWNCrwoASfdF9Ou7YrFQMm4BO7IfkACfwB8MFQyHIfzqAi.094VhoIQ2GHV1 jqUETWvgyUvVnf1ph54Ti0LH2CQnPhcKi8Bfi_D4qwd4AO2U4pOZ9GnbxRO1 cyDb_RvFhVWfQAgAdFR1Lq2Bv9k4yZbg3tZXuZkc6tZK7KWTA4vTGYylqA71 xokhHbyVCvC9UcTfMOk_G X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 References: <5349359c-f884-4976-a3e1-b0610eabeff6@googlegroups.com> <20140928013358.GB28734@gonzales> <20140928152915.GB7320@gonzales> <20141004141407.GG32481@gonzales> <20141005153531.GA1974@gonzales> <20141005214350.GC1974@gonzales> <5433F201.2020902@gmail.com> <5434EA6C.9090507@gmail.com> <1412802488.55250.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412861205.15295.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412871334.88429.YahooMailNeo@web181106.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412904403.17231.YahooMailNeo@web181104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412944837.7070.YahooMailNeo@web181103.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1412988188.73626.YahooMailNeo@web181105.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <8449E7EF-03E6-426D-8E50-CF40F2D867F4@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:22:13 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: "John E. Clifford" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-074800B6-355D-4CC6-B129-BFEE355C4C8F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.5 X-Spam_score_int: -4 X-Spam_bar: / --Apple-Mail-074800B6-355D-4CC6-B129-BFEE355C4C8F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 We are back to the why of all this. Why keep proposing replacements for per= fectly good forms if you acknowledge they are perfectly good? If you are ju= st seeking some way of dealing with cases that are more difficult, why not= start by building on the easy cases, rather than on some more complex form= s that may do the same work? Your difficult example involves so many logic= ally (and Lojbanically) questionable moves that it can scarcely be used as = an argument for a differ approach without a number of intervening steps jus= tifying each move past an obstacle. To good from a hypothetical version of = a clear case to acclaim to have dealt with a difficult and questionable one= is not very convincing. Sent from my iPad On Oct 11, 2014, at 9:20, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote: >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 9:39 AM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban wrote: >=20 > I got to wondering about "What I think John knows is possible", ignoring = the extra problems of cognitive predicates and using / for the descriptor, = since typefaces keep confusing LC ell with one and uc i. P /x(Bi/y(^Kjx^y))= , which Is not going to convert easily, as you say. >=20 > Actually, the English is ambiguous, but my example was just a referring t= erm, not a complete formula: /x(Bi/y(^Kj/z(^Px^z)^y) if I understand the = notation correctly. I suppose you just read the English and not the Lojban = forms, which didn't share that ambiguity: >=20 > lo poi'i mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki > xxx poi mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki > zo'e noi mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki >=20 > =20 > But that is no reason to disparage cases that do convert easily. =20 >=20 > We're not disparaging the more ergonomic forms, they are used all the ti= me.=20 >=20 > Indeed, it makes me inclined to doubt the legitimacy of the form itself (= quantifying in and all that). >=20 > What would it mean that it was illegitimate? It wouldn't mean anything, o= r it would mean something else? >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --Apple-Mail-074800B6-355D-4CC6-B129-BFEE355C4C8F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
We are back to the why of= all this. Why keep proposing replacements for perfectly good forms if you = acknowledge they are perfectly good? If you are just seeking some way of de= aling with cases  that are more difficult, why not start by building o= n the easy cases, rather than on some more complex forms that may do the sa= me work?  Your difficult example involves so many logically (and Lojba= nically) questionable moves that it can scarcely be used as an argument for= a differ approach without a number of intervening steps justifying each mo= ve past an obstacle. To good from a hypothetical version of a clear case to= acclaim to have dealt with a difficult and questionable one is not very co= nvincing.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 11, 2014, at 9:20, = Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@= gmail.com> wrote:

=


On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 9:39 AM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I got to wondering about "Wh= at I think John knows is possible", ignoring the extra problems of cognitiv= e predicates and using / for the descriptor, since typefaces keep confusing= LC ell with one and uc i. P /x(Bi/y(^Kjx^y)), which Is not going to conver= t easily, as you say.

A= ctually, the English is ambiguous, but my example was just a referring term= , not a complete formula:  /x(Bi/y(^Kj/z(^Px^z)^y)  if I understa= nd the notation correctly. I suppose you just read the English and not the = Lojban forms, which didn't share that ambiguity:

<= div style=3D"font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px">  lo poi'i m= i jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki
  xxx poi mi jinvi lo du'u la= djan cu djuno lo du'u ke'a cumki
  zo'e noi mi jinvi lo du'u la djan cu djun= o lo du'u ke'a cumki

 
 But that is no reason to di= sparage cases that do convert easily.  

 We're not disparaging the more ergonomic forms, = they are used all the time. 

Indeed, it makes me inclined to doubt the l= egitimacy of the form itself (quantifying in and all that).

What would it mean that it was illegiti= mate? It wouldn't mean anything, or it would mean something else?

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban.
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