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[2a00:1450:400c:c05::232]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ca20si350547wib.3.2014.10.11.10.02.35 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) client-ip=2a00:1450:400c:c05::232; Received: by mail-wi0-f178.google.com with SMTP id h11so476172wiw.5 for ; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.186.1 with SMTP id fg1mr11280642wic.22.1413046955577; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.194.175.167 with HTTP; Sat, 11 Oct 2014 10:02:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20141008015245.GB17866@gonzales> <20141009010533.GF18854@gonzales> <20141009233031.GC1592@gonzales> <20141010234033.GG22868@gonzales> <20141011021201.GH22868@gonzales> <20141011143749.GD23876@gonzales> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 21:02:35 +0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 From: Gleki Arxokuna To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:400c:c05::232 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=gleki.is.my.name@gmail.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11c26ac2d69823050528a1fe X-Spam-Score: -1.9 (-) X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_bar: - --001a11c26ac2d69823050528a1fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2014-10-11 20:34 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas : > > On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Martin Bays wrote: > >> * Saturday, 2014-10-11 at 08:58 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas < >> jjllambias@gmail.com>: >> >> > On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Martin Bays wrote: >> >> > > (So then tu'a needing opacity is no longer an argument that the rest >> of >> > > LAhE should get it...) >> > >> > Well... >> >> By which you mean it kind of still is, because it's best to minimise >> what irregularity we're forced into? Perhaps so. No longer a strong >> argument, anyway. >> > > It's still the case that "tu'a" places the operators at the minimum of th= e > three scopes available to it, so it's reasonable for the others to place > them at the minimum of the two scopes they have available. Also for "na'e > bo" and for "lu'a" the minimum scope seems to be the more useful one. If > based just on usefulness LAhE would have to be split into different class= es > with different logical behaviors. > > Or perhaps we need to reevaluate the definition of some of these LAhEs. I > wouldn't mind for example making "lu'i A .e B" the set of those things th= at > are both among A and among B, which would require redefining "lu'i" as "l= o > selcmi be ro me", with three potential scope levels just as "tu'a" has, a= nd > with the minimum being the correct one. > Sorry for intervening but what are the three levels of {tu'a}? Could you please illustrate them via an example? > > Regarding {lo}: could it be the "down" operator which extracts a kind >> from a predicate? I'm not seeing any other options, if it is "definite" >> and if \iota is out. >> > > That kind of presupposes that among all the various operators that > linguists/logicians/etc have defined, described, explored there has to be > one that matches "lo". I don't know enough about the subject to give an > opinion one way or the other. > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --001a11c26ac2d69823050528a1fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


2014-10-11 20:34 GMT+04:00 Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.co= m>:

On Sat= , Oct 11, 2014 at 11:37 AM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:
* Saturday, 2014-1= 0-11 at 08:58 -0300 - Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com>:

> On Fri, Oct 10, 2014 at 11:12 PM, Martin Bays <mbays@sdf.org> wrote:

> > (So then tu'a needing opacity is no longer an argument that t= he rest of
> > LAhE should get it...)
>
> Well...

By which you mean it kind of still is, because it's best to mini= mise
what irregularity we're forced into? Perhaps so. No longer a strong
argument, anyway.

It's still= the case that "tu'a" places the operators at the minimum of = the three scopes available to it, so it's reasonable for the others to = place them at the minimum of the two scopes they have available. Also for &= quot;na'e bo" and for "lu'a" the minimum scope seems= to be the more useful one. If based just on usefulness LAhE would have to = be split into different classes with different logical behaviors.=C2=A0

Or perhaps we need to reevaluate the definition of so= me of these LAhEs. I wouldn't mind for example making "lu'i A = .e B" the set of those things that are both among A and among B, which= would require redefining "lu'i" as "lo selcmi be ro me&= quot;, with three potential scope levels just as "tu'a" has, = and with the minimum being the correct one.


Sorry for intervening but what are = the three levels of {tu'a}? Could you please illustrate them via an exa= mple?=C2=A0

Regarding {lo}: could it be the "down" operator which extracts a = kind
from a predicate? I'm not seeing any other options, if it is "defi= nite"
and if \iota is out.

That kind of= presupposes that among all the various operators that linguists/logicians/= etc have defined, described, explored there has to be one that matches &quo= t;lo". I don't know enough about the subject to give an opinion on= e way or the other.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

=C2=A0=C2=A0
=

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsub= scribe@googlegroups.com.
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