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[98.138.91.224]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id gy6si891195igb.1.2014.10.11.13.42.07 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 11 Oct 2014 13:42:07 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.224 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.224; Received: from [98.138.226.179] by nm2.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 20:42:07 -0000 Received: from [98.138.84.39] by tm14.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 20:42:07 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by smtp107.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 11 Oct 2014 20:42:07 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 198253.81801.bm@smtp107.mail.ne1.yahoo.com X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: RuGbBQgVM1lPTsnSYNCcAzrJj7DAabqmWUjXVpFq_LT.Pum oeZyU1iFi07saeOT9kiL_qFSzuFnaJV1OgiHd9KTQnP07M5h0sa77asp9RXu CBO9PUx57MR2oZFiKnb1DX1LImkeJ5Y5dxTHAmnl5kCjHK6NZmqvRMdzOwZE czZo6_HIur_97R7QrV__iKTe7FaANIL8MALiDQI5iQVyIP4NDC3M48D.WJCQ s.yyFNK_w87vlXaduguYEQyBhuuGkQfjotSXtYTn1dKZUnIA7KoolcTvBc9N obXz3_5orYYU3kCt06SwR9JuIGCt_MvN1g2hhsvns501zs7RoqN7DX6dcpsx 55FLmCN0GXMNssTcDDiB2aGzXnzwetpI9UYFZiyUWI9UZg9AmXFbEGwryJ4f 7g0faSANYUw9mon_FFY3X4JQltUxGXncNhQVwPDi7QwNO4gHe26mcxIgbmBb 2f.dzRdwiezaNoY.Gl114a7ai77Fcqz_0YcimEcGqhSKm3qiCjhqXpH0taCc b6lWI0Gd66pjQc8Fz0GUYhBwVcjDQlM1blcSPEYRH.xAvobSxfXx15oiFAWz 9kYWeUoAGwqY5lsKHljavGgOX_w1j01aoCQ_yz.1t.AqBiQtehYmRG_t8EV4 B3mXRZ1BkznWElpYI9ZE7Pv41qbSGICFqmV1aMKE365auD2EPUsaX.NFuAah WkzNI9_UTJUSEtjSyNBVd X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: tersmu 0.2 References: <20141008015245.GB17866@gonzales> <20141009010533.GF18854@gonzales> <20141009233031.GC1592@gonzales> <20141010234033.GG22868@gonzales> <20141011021201.GH22868@gonzales> <20141011143749.GD23876@gonzales> <930D4F65-7C22-48E1-9B55-4B9A3C81CF37@yahoo.com> From: "'John E. Clifford' via lojban" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (9B206) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <6ED7B680-2BE9-40F9-8329-21E063EDF2BB@yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 11 Oct 2014 15:42:05 -0500 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.224 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass header.i=@yahoo.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Original-From: "John E. Clifford" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-BF09ECFF-7662-49C5-B692-653FEF1E4683 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) X-Spam_score: -0.5 X-Spam_score_int: -4 X-Spam_bar: / --Apple-Mail-BF09ECFF-7662-49C5-B692-653FEF1E4683 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Well, I am not too sure about the distinction between singular {ci} and plu= ral, which plural reference was supposed to solve but managed to multiply. = Still, there does seem to be a problem here. I thought that perhaps we ha= d the set "For three men, I want them to run", "I want three men for to run= " and "I want for three men to run'. But the second was still suspect, sin= ce it seemed to need another {tu'a} to come out right. Another possibility= is that, since these levels are generated by places where a matrix is inse= rted, that the relevant level here is not such a case even though treated a= s the same in Lojban. That is, referring to an event or proposition is not= a case of picking a salient object with the property of being an event or = proposition, but a different sort of move, as it typically is in logic: not= /x^p^x, but simply ^p^. This removes the opportunity for another quantifi= er, if I have got the pattern down. {ci da zo'u mi djica du'u (I would hav= e thought nu, but my theology is happier with propositions anyhow) da co'e}= vs {mi djica du'u ci da co'e} with no other places to put in quantifier. = All very unLojbanic, of course, but we're well past that objection by now. Sent from my iPad On Oct 11, 2014, at 15:04, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas wrote= : >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 4:46 PM, 'John E. Clifford' via lojban wrote: > Does p have to be the same for each value of x? Or does it just have to = be the same up to x? That is, can this be "I want three men to run for gov= ernor" in the sense of, say, needing to fill out a ballot. They have to be= this worldly, but my wishes don't involve their identities. ? >=20 > p is the proposition that satisfies "ci da zo'u ke'a du'u da co'e", so ye= s with singular "ci" it has to be the same proposition for each of three va= lues of x, which doesn't make much sense. >=20 > Now with plural "ci" it would make sense again, since now it is, for some= three men, the proposition that they run. >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes > =20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an= email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. --Apple-Mail-BF09ECFF-7662-49C5-B692-653FEF1E4683 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
Well, I am not too sure a= bout the distinction between singular {ci} and plural, which plural referen= ce was supposed to solve but managed to multiply.  Still, there does s= eem to be a problem here.  I thought that perhaps we had the set "For = three men, I want them to run", "I want three men for to run" and "I want f= or three men to run'.  But the second was still suspect, since it seem= ed to need another {tu'a} to come out right.  Another possibility is t= hat, since these levels are generated by places where a matrix is inserted,= that the relevant level here is not such a case even though treated as the= same in Lojban.  That is, referring to an event or proposition is not= a case of picking a salient object with the property of being an event or = proposition, but a different sort of move, as it typically is in logic: not= /x^p^x, but simply ^p^.  This removes the opportunity for another qua= ntifier, if I have got the pattern down.  {ci da zo'u mi djica du'u (I= would have thought nu, but my theology is happier with propositions anyhow= ) da co'e}  vs {mi djica du'u ci da co'e} with no other places to put = in quantifier.  All very unLojbanic, of course, but we're well past th= at objection by now.

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 1= 1, 2014, at 15:04, Jorge Llamb=C3=ADas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:


On Sat, Oct 11, 2014 at 4:46 PM, 'John E. Cliff= ord' via lojban <lojban@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Does p have to b= e the same for each value of x?  Or does it just have to be the same u= p to x?  That is, can this be "I want three men to run for governor" i= n the sense of, say, needing to fill out a ballot.  They have to be th= is worldly, but my wishes don't involve their identities. ?

p is the proposition that satisfies "ci da zo'= u ke'a du'u da co'e", so yes with singular "ci" it has to be the same propo= sition for each of three values of x, which doesn't make much sense.
<= div>
Now with plural "ci" it would make sense again, since no= w it is, for some three men, the proposition that they run.

<= /div>
mu'o mi'e xorxes
  

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