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Date: Wed, 15 Oct 2014 18:43:45 -0300
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Subject: Re: [lojban] tosmabru test: intelligible explanation sought
From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jorge_Llamb=C3=ADas?= <jjllambias@gmail.com>
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On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM, <sunrise2000@comcast.net> wrote:

> coi rodo
>
> I'm looking for an (intelligible) explanation of the "tosmabru test"
> that's part of the "lujvo-making alogrithm" in section 11 of chapter 4
> of the CLL (the chapter on morphology).  The problem I'm having is that
> the explanation of the tosmabru test on p. 71 can only be understood by
> someone who already understands the test.  (...which kind of defeats the
> point of reading and writing about it, doesn't it?)  In particular:
>

I answer your questions, but then I will give you a different procedure to
test for tosmabru that I find easier to follow.

  1.  In the pattern "CVC...CVC + X", is the "..." intended to represent
>       a sequence only of CVC rafsi?
>

Yes.

  2.  What does "something which has caused a 'y'-hyphen to be installed
>       between the previous CVC and itself by one of the above rules"
>       mean?  Is that just a complicated way of saying that the final
>       consonant of the final CVC and initial consonant of X formed an
>       impermissible consonant pair?  Does reference to "the above rules"
>       include rule 5, the tosmabru test itself?
>

No, it refers to the rules up to 4. Tosmabru failure will only require you
to insert a single y-hyphen, which we haven't inserted at this point yet.

  3.  When "no further hyphens are needed", to what level of recursion
>       does that refer?
>

This test is not recursive. (5b) says that if at least one of the CC pairs
up to the first y-hyphen (or up to the end of the word if there are no
y-hyphens) is not a permissible initial, then the test is over and the
lujvo passes the test (it's not a tosmabru fail).

  4.  When installing a y-hyphen at "the first such joint", is the first
>       joint counted from the left, or from the right?
>

First from the left.

  5.  I presume, if the tosmabru test doesn't apply, that the lujvo
>       "passes" the test (because it's the last step in the lujvo-making
>       algorithm), but the description doesn't explicitly state this.
>

Yes.


> Basically, the description in the CLL can only be understood if you
> already understand the test, or can re-invent it yourself.  Could
> somebody please point me to a clear explanation of this "tosmabru test"?
>

Here's another version of the test:

A lujvo with CVC- as it's initial rafsi (CVC-X) is a candidate for tosmabru
failure. If C-X is a valid lujvo, where C is the final C of CVC-, then you
need to insert a y-hyphen: CVCyX, otherwise you don't.

Unlike the CLL test, this version of the test requires you to be capable of
identifying whether a certain form (C-X) is a lujvo or not, but you have to
be able to do this to parse lojban anyway, so that shouldn't be an
impediment.

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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<div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">=
On Wed, Oct 15, 2014 at 12:35 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
sunrise2000@comcast.net" target=3D"_blank">sunrise2000@comcast.net</a>&gt;<=
/span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8=
ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">coi rodo<br>
<br>
I&#39;m looking for an (intelligible) explanation of the &quot;tosmabru tes=
t&quot;<br>
that&#39;s part of the &quot;lujvo-making alogrithm&quot; in section 11 of =
chapter 4<br>
of the CLL (the chapter on morphology).=C2=A0 The problem I&#39;m having is=
 that<br>
the explanation of the tosmabru test on p. 71 can only be understood by<br>
someone who already understands the test.=C2=A0 (...which kind of defeats t=
he<br>
point of reading and writing about it, doesn&#39;t it?)=C2=A0 In particular=
:<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I answer your questions, but then I w=
ill give you a different procedure to test for tosmabru that I find easier =
to follow.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 1.=C2=A0 In the pattern &quot;CVC...CVC + X&quot;, is the &quot;...&=
quot; intended to represent<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 a sequence only of CVC rafsi?<br></blockquote><div><br=
></div><div>Yes.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 2.=C2=A0 What does &quot;something which has caused a &#39;y&#39;-hy=
phen to be installed<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 between the previous CVC and itself by one of the abov=
e rules&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 mean?=C2=A0 Is that just a complicated way of saying t=
hat the final<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 consonant of the final CVC and initial consonant of X =
formed an<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 impermissible consonant pair?=C2=A0 Does reference to =
&quot;the above rules&quot;<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 include rule 5, the tosmabru test itself?<br></blockqu=
ote><div><br></div><div>No, it refers to the rules up to 4. Tosmabru failur=
e will only require you to insert a single y-hyphen, which we haven&#39;t i=
nserted at this point yet.</div><div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_q=
uote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1e=
x">
=C2=A0 3.=C2=A0 When &quot;no further hyphens are needed&quot;, to what lev=
el of recursion<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 does that refer?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>T=
his test is not recursive. (5b) says that if at least one of the CC pairs u=
p to the first y-hyphen (or up to the end of the word if there are no y-hyp=
hens) is not a permissible initial, then the test is over and the lujvo pas=
ses the test (it&#39;s not a tosmabru fail).</div><div><br></div><blockquot=
e class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc sol=
id;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 4.=C2=A0 When installing a y-hyphen at &quot;the first such joint&qu=
ot;, is the first<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 joint counted from the left, or from the right?<br></b=
lockquote><div><br></div><div>First from the left.=C2=A0</div><div><br></di=
v><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:=
1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
=C2=A0 5.=C2=A0 I presume, if the tosmabru test doesn&#39;t apply, that the=
 lujvo<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 &quot;passes&quot; the test (because it&#39;s the last=
 step in the lujvo-making<br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 algorithm), but the description doesn&#39;t explicitly=
 state this.<br></blockquote><div>=C2=A0</div><div>Yes.</div><div>=C2=A0</d=
iv><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left=
:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
Basically, the description in the CLL can only be understood if you<br>
already understand the test, or can re-invent it yourself.=C2=A0 Could<br>
somebody please point me to a clear explanation of this &quot;tosmabru test=
&quot;?<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Here&#39;s another version of t=
he test:</div><div><br></div><div>A lujvo with CVC- as it&#39;s initial raf=
si (CVC-X) is a candidate for tosmabru failure. If C-X is a valid lujvo, wh=
ere C is the final C of CVC-, then you need to insert a y-hyphen: CVCyX, ot=
herwise you don&#39;t.=C2=A0</div><div><br></div><div>Unlike the CLL test, =
this version of the test requires you to be capable of identifying whether =
a certain form (C-X) is a lujvo or not, but you have to be able to do this =
to parse lojban anyway, so that shouldn&#39;t be an impediment.</div><div><=
br></div><div>mu&#39;o mi&#39;e xorxes</div><div><br></div></div></div></di=
v>

<p></p>

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